JPD

How interesting. I can say with absolute confidence that no such place as heaven or hell exists so such indirect threats have no effect on me. I feel far safer examining the available evidence from a wide variety of sources - which place no demands on those taking an interest in them within the context of a life which presents various and frequently hard challenges - and drawing my own conclusions. Were I to follow a path similar to yours I would feel that I had taken a rambling and once relevant text and used it to smother my mind with all the skill of a monkey trying to lever a buffalo into a telephone box with a stick of celery. He pretends that the celery hasn't snapped and goes on huffing and puffing away as if sheer effort will bring about the result he desires.

I would be interested to know whether you regard the "essence of God" as being known to you. If it is, and you can manage to tie this unknown, unfathomable element to what you regard as God's output (the physical universe), and can present unequivocal evidence that the Bible is the word or the work of God, then you will have done something frequently attempted but never achieved. What has been written in the Bible that could not possibly have originated from the human imagination? Rules are constantly broken if you choose to cite your God wholly within the mind during your existence in this world and there are too many errors and contradictions within the Bible to explain away comfortably as mere interpretation in the absence of a more convincing and fundamentally sound set of intelligent observations.

Clarice O'C

Even though there is no hell, this is a horrid thing to say. I think you owe JPD an apology.

Reason, unrestrained by any of the gods.

JPD

The thing with heaven and hell scenarios is that from the fundamentalist believer's perspective it is a quick win and makes few mental demands.
The real test of the believer's intelligence is in his or her ability to uphold an intelligent and well-thought out argument after the cheap points have been scored. Any fool can spout dogma.

Helpmabob

Hi John – John, I have nothing further to say about binoculars - that was me being flippant. I have patience, but I am not humouring you, I am trying hard to give a reason for the hope that I have that I will be spared hell, and how I believe there is hope for all who will turn. Please read 1 Corinthians 3 10-15. It finishes: If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. Only if a man will turn to God, and believe, there in a nutshell is the way to avoid hell. Even if everything else he does is vain, and is found to be transparent, he is safe. How can it be anything other than clinical and to the point? I do not know JPD, do I? There I some I know personally who will also not turn to God, and for them my grief will be apparent.

Clarice - But I bet you don’t think JPD owes his God an apology.

JPD – reply to follow…

Wayne Delia

I notice he's dropped the ball on this one so I'll see if I can help him out. When binoculars are turned around, and used by looking through the opposite ends, the images appear much smaller and even appear farther away. This makes everything clear by... oh, hell, I don't know.

WMD

Clarice O'C

Maybe like seeing though a glass [mirror] darkly and then face to face. Quoting scripture.


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Clarice O'C

He doesn't have one. But no, you're right, he would owe nothing like that an apology.

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Clarice O'C

No, the other way around. Seeing face to face would create everything as farther away--darkness.

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Helpmabob

Hi JPD – Firstly, let me confirm that I am definitely not one of those proverbial monkeys getting very lucky with random keystrokes. You have not tried this path; I have. I do not feel the way you describe; I feel as though I have found the way, the truth and the life. It feels right.
I promise you that I wish I were better able to address this sort of query. At the moment I know the Holy Spirit as a guide, cajoler and comforter. It is a fact that whilst you live, there will be no proof of God, only evidence. That is how it is.

Let me finish with this, seeing that we are on about not going to hell. The alternative to going to hell is to enter God’s kingdom, but what is that like?
'Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it’. [Matthew 13:45-46]

Harumi

The difference between JPD and God Helpma, is this:

1) JPD we have interacted, and know within reason that he exists. If he turns out to be a highly sophisticated internet bot, that is another topic altogether, but based on my current (though limited) knowledge of bots, he is 99.9999% likely of being a real, flesh and blood human being.

2) You have yet to convince us that a god like yours is real and not a figment of your imagination. Your only proof thus far has been "I don't know, but I do", and that's unfortunately not very convincing.

Do we have to apologize to the invisible dragon for not believing in him? Or the pink fairy? Rain elves? As far as we are concerned, your god is but an additional character in this potentially long list of highly unlikely creatures.

You on the other hand, told another human being that he will be going to hell (IOW a torture chamber) if he in essence doesn't agree with what you believe. We don't find hell to be much of a threat, but the sentiment behind that is quite clear.

My friends on the other hand, do not believe that I will be going to hell. Why are their beliefs different from yours in this regard? Are they misguided? Deceived by Satan? I'm quite sure that if they were on this board and read what you said that they would be adamantly against it. Care to explain this discrepancy of beliefs for me? I assure you, both my friends attend church regularly and are very religious.

They certainly don't expect me to apologize to god. But I'm telling you right now, bring out the proof that your god exists (or any other creature: demons, vampires, tooth fairies, etc) and we will cease to be atheists. I am actually quite willing to believe. It's a nice idea knowing that we have a loving god to take care of us, but from my research and study, that's all it is: a nice idea.

We are only atheists because we lack a belief in it (just as afairyists lack a belief in fairies). Convince us that he's real, and I'm sure JPD will readily apologize to god as you might apologize to JPD.