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Contributor
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
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Originally Posted by Vorkosigan
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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle
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Originally Posted by Steven Carr
SO not even an attempt to find another itinerant preacher who had a fixed number of disciples travelling with him....
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FWIW there is a strange story in the Clementine Homilies about John the Baptist and the 29 1/2 disciples
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There was one John, a day-baptist, who was also, according to the method of combination, the forerunner of our Lord Jesus; and as the Lord had twelve apostles, bearing the number of the twelve months of the sun, so also he, John, had thirty chief men, fulfilling the monthly reckoning of the moon, in which number was a certain woman called Helena, that not even this might be without a dispensational significance. For a woman, being half a man, made up the imperfect number of the triacontad; as also in the case of the moon, whose revolution does not make the complete course of the month
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Andrew Criddle |
That's priceless, both for the attribution of astronomical origin and for the 29.5 disciples. |
The pricelessness increases the further you go into these texts, for example the text above continues into the next chapter. The author uses the principle of rounding up, not rounding down, to bring the apostles of John to the round figure of 30. You can see how the female eventually got her way as being counted amidst the all-male crew:
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But of these thirty, the first and the most esteemed by John was Simon; and the reason of his not being chief after the death of John was as follows:-
Chapter XXIV.-Electioneering Stratagems.
"He being absent in Egypt for the practice of magic, and John being killed, Dositheus desiring the leadership,21 falsely gave out that Simon was dead, and succeeded to the seat. But Simon, returning not long after, and strenuously holding by the place as his own, when he met with Dositheus did not demand the place, knowing that a man who has attained power beyond his expectations cannot be removed from it. Wherefore with pretended friendship he gives himself for a while to the second place, under Dositheus. But taking his place after a few days among the thirty fellow-disciples, he began to malign Dositheus as not delivering the instructions correctly. And this he said that he did, not through unwillingness to deliver them correctly, but through ignorance. And on one occasion, Dositheus, perceiving that this artful accusation of Simon was dissipating the opinion of him with respect to many, so that they did not think that he was the Standing One, came in a rage to the usual place of meeting, and finding Simon, struck him with a staff. But it seemed to pass through the body of Simon as if he had been smoke. .........etc etc etc
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Surely a sign of the presence and activity of the Holy Ghost.
The following from Whelas on the two Clements (Rome and Alexandria) ...
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Originally Posted by Whelas on Clement of Rome
CLEMENT OF ROME
(about 30-96 A.D.). He is alleged to be the
first, second, third, or fourth, Bishop, or Pope, of Rome (CE. iv,
13); and to be the author of two Epistles to the Corinthians,
besides other bulky and important forgeries, thus confessed and
catalogued by CE:
"Many writings have been faslely attributed to Pope St.
Clement: (1) The 'Second Clementine Epistle to the Corinthians.'
Many critics have believed them genuine [they having been read in
the Churches]. ... But it is now admitted on all hands that they
cannot be by the same author as the genuine [?] Epistle to the
Corinthians. ... (2) Two Epistles to Virgins.' (3) At the head of
the Pscudo-Isidorian Decretals stand five letters attributed to St.
Clement. (4) Ascribed to Clement are the 'Apostolic Constitutions,'
'Apostolic Canons,' and the "Testament of our lord.' (5) The
'Clementines' or 'Pseudo-Clementines,' including the Recognitions
and Homilies," hereafter to be noticed. (CE. iv, 14-15; cf. 17,
39.)
The second of these alleged Epistles of Clement to the
Corinthians is thus admittedly a forgery, together with everything
else in his name but the alleged First Epistle. The case for this
First Epistle is little if any better; but as it is the very flimsy
basis of one of the proudest claims of Holy Church -- though
suppressed as "proof" of another claim which it disproves, -- it
is, as it were, plucked as a brand from the burning of all the
other Clementine forgeries, and placed at the head of all the
writings of the Fathers. Of this I Clement EB. says: "The author is
certainly not Clement of Rome, whatever may be our judgment as to
whether or not Clement was a bishop, a martyr, a disciple of the
apostles. The martyrdom, set forth in untrustworthy Acts, has for
its sole foundation the identification of Clement of Rome with
Flavius Clement the consul, who was executed by cominand of
Domitian," -- A.D. 81-96. (EB. iii, 3486.) This First Epistle is
supposed to have been written about the year 96-98, by Clement,
friend and coworker of Paul, according to the late "tradition"
first set in motion by Dionysius, A.D. 170. But "This Clement,"
says CE., after citing the Fathers, "was probably a Philippian."
(CE. iv, 13.) "Who the Clement was to whom the writings were
asscribed, cannot with absolute certainty be determined." (ANF. i,
2.)
It is notable that the pretendedly genuine "First Epistle"
does not contain or mention the name of any one as its author, nor
name Clement; its address is simply: "The Church of God which
sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojurning at Corinth." There
is only one MS. of it in existence, a translation into Latin from
the original Greek. This is the celebrated MS. of "Holy Scripture"
known as Codex A, which was discovered and presented to Charles I
of England by Cyril of Alexandria, in 1628; the Fathers cited both
I and II Clement as Seripture. On this MS., at the end of I
Clement, is written, "The First Epistle of Clement to the
Corinthians": a subscription which proves itself a forgery and that
it was not written by Clement, who could not know that a later
forger would write a "Second Clement," so as to give him occasion
to call his own the First. (ANF. viii, 55-56.)
By whomever this "First Epistle" was written, by Father,
Bishop, or Pope of Rome, his zeal and his intelligence are
demonstrated by his argument, in Chapter xxv, of the truth of the
Resurrection; in proof of which he makes this powerful and faith-
compelling plea: "Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the
resurrection) which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in
Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which
is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives
five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near
that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and
myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it
enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is
produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird,
brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it
takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and
bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the
City called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of
all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done
this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect
the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly
as the 500th year was completed." (ANF. i. p. 12. Note: "This fable
respecting the phoenix is mentioned by Herodotus (ii, 73) and by
Pliny (Nat. X, 2), and is used as above by Tertullian (De Resurr.,
see. 13), and by others of the Fathers." CF,. iv, 15.)
The occasion for the pretended writing of this Epistle, and
the very high significance of it, will be noticed when we treat of
the origin of the Church which sojourns at Roine.
-- extracted from Joseph Wheless,
"FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY", 1930
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Originally Posted by Whelas on Clement of Alexandria
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: (c. 153-c. 215). Ex-Pagan; head of
the catechetical school of Alexandria; tutor of Origen. He wrote an
Exhortation to the Heathen, the Poedagogus, or Instructor, and
eight books called Stromata, or Miscellanies. From the latter a few
random assays are taken which fully accredit him among the simple-
minded and credulous Fathers of Christianity.
Clement devotes ample chapters to showing the 'Plagiarism by
the Greeks of the Miracles related in the Sacred Books of the
Hebrews"; he quotes as inspired the forged book "Peter's
Preaching," and the heathen Sibyls and Hystaspes; he assures us,
with his reason therefor, that "The Apostles, following the Lord,
preached the Gospel to those in Hades. For it was requisite, in my
opinion, that as here, so also there, the rest of the disciples
should be imitators of the Master." Abraham was a great scientist:
"As thin in astronomy we have Abraham as an instance, so also in
arithmetic we have the same Abraham," the latter diploma being
founded on the feat that Abraham, "hearing that Lot had been taken
captive, numbered his own. servants, 318"; this mystic number,
expressed in Greek letters T I E, used as numerals: "the character
representing 300 (T) is the Lord's sign (Cross), and I and E
indicate the Savior's name," et cetera, of cabalistic twaddle.
(Strom. VI, xi; ANF. ii, 499.) Clement believes the heathen gods
and the Sibyls, and all the demigods and myths of Greece: "We have
also demonstrated Moses to be more ancient, not only than those
called, poets and wise men, but than most of their deities. Not
alone he, but the Sibyl, is more ancient than Orpheus. ... On her
arrival at Delphi she sang:
'O Delphians, ministers of far-darting Apollo,
I come to declare the mind of AEgis-bearing Zeus,
Enraged as I am at my own brother Apollo.'" (Strom. ii, 325.)
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10-17-2011, 12:41 AM
