Freethought & Rationalism Archive

juergen · 01-08-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Jesus claimed to have the same power that the Pharisees knew only God could have. When the Pharisees say, "Only God can forgive sins," Jesus, responds, "Which is easier: to forgive sin or to heal." His point was that anyone can say, "Your sins are forgiven," and who can tell if they are, but if a person heals a person, all can look at the man to see that he has been healed. Jesus healed the paralytic to make his point and the Pharisees understood that He was not only claiming to be God but doing that which only God can do.

Prophets did miraculous signs that only God could do too, that doesn't mean it wasn't the Prophets doing them. It means they did them through the power of God, with the permission of God.

It could be equally concluded, from reading the text, that Jesus was merely saying he had the power to forgive sins, the Pharisees would still get their panties in a wad for blasphemy against God. Surely, no prophet of God would claim such thing, in their understanding. But this doesn't mean they thought he was claiming to be God.

The thing is, Jesus doesn't state why he's got the power. He just says he has it.

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Jesus claimed to have the same power that the Pharisees knew only God could have. When the Pharisees say, "Only God can forgive sins," Jesus, responds, "Which is easier: to forgive sin or to heal." His point was that anyone can say, "Your sins are forgiven," and who can tell if they are, but if a person heals a person, all can look at the man to see that he has been healed. Jesus healed the paralytic to make his point and the Pharisees understood that He was not only claiming to be God but doing that which only God can do.

Prophets did miraculous signs that only God could do too, that doesn't mean it wasn't the Prophets doing them. It means they did them through the power of God, with the permission of God.

I don't think that the prophets ever did miraculous signs. They would call out to God to do X and then God would do X. Jesus would do the signs directly of His own power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

It could be equally concluded, from reading the text, that Jesus was merely saying he had the power to forgive sins, the Pharisees would still get their panties in a wad for blasphemy against God. Surely, no prophet of God would claim such thing, in their understanding. But this doesn't mean they thought he was claiming to be God.

I think the Pharisees would understand that a person claiming to be able to forgive sin was also claiming to be God as no one except God can forgive sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

The thing is, Jesus doesn't state why he's got the power. He just says he has it.

Yes. Jesus exercised power to do things that only God has the power to do and He was able to do these things Himself without asking God to do them (as the prophets of old would have had to do).

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben052483

I can understand dedicating your life to a belief in god and not wanting to let it go and admit it was a waste, but Rhutchin here is a slippery fellow.

Why would God demand that you corrupt your reason so much? There could be a verse in the bible that says "The fool hath said in his heart that there is a god" and he would claim that it depends on how we interpret fool.

There is a verse that says, "The fool hath said in his heart that there is a NO God" and it does depend on the interpretation of a "fool" and the phrase "hath said in his heart."

rhutchin · 01-08-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Jesus healed the paralytic to make his point and the Pharisees understood that He was not only claiming to be God but doing that which only God can do.

He was denying that only God could forgive sins and performing a magical healing to give himself legitimacy. Just like any other alleged healer of the time and just like Paul and the apostles did later.

You are reading your beliefs into this passage.

That would mean that Jesus was making Himself God and challenging the God of the OT. That is not what was happening. I think you have allowed your imagination to run roughshod over reason.

Amaleq13 · 01-08-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

That would mean that Jesus was making Himself God...

No, he is denying the claim that only God can forgive sins. He explicitly and repeatedly refers to God as a separate entity from himself. You can't just pretend those passages don't exist.

Quote:

...and challenging the God of the OT.

IIUC, it is Jewish tradition, not anything explicitly stated in Scripture, that claims the ultimate form of forgiveness (ie atonement) is reserved solely for God. That same tradition also denies that anyone can atone for the sins of another. Jesus denies this tradition explicitly here and the story implicitly denies it with the claimed significance of his crucifixion.

Quote:

I think you have allowed your imagination to run roughshod over reason.

Quite the opposite, in fact, but I question your ability to differentiate between the two given the things you claim to believe.

Dogfish · 01-08-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Tyre is now the 4th largest city in Lebanon and Nebuchadrezzar never took the island.

Is the current city of Tyre the same as the ancient city of Tyre? Given that the verse says, "...though you be sought for, you will never be found again...," maybe the old city of Tyre has disappeared forever and a new city was built to replace it.

"And, maybe......"

Dogfish · 01-08-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

But no one knows anything about what heaven and hell are like. How can a man like or dislike that which he knows nothing about?

You know that which the Bible says about them. No more; no less.

You should not depend on, or trust, someone else to tell you what the Scriptures say. You should read it for yourself.

What a non-response. So if after reading the bible, it tells me it's full of shit, it's true? How is that wrong or right compared to what it told you?

Dogfish · 01-08-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

On the other side of the coin, according to a Calvinist perspective, Christians don't choose God either, God makes that choice for them.

Does that make it impossible for you to know whether God is working in your life and to object if you do not like what you see happening? Regardless what the Calvinists say (and I am a Calvinist), that does not stop you from knowing what is happening to you.

Sure it stops you from "knowing" anything of the kind. Doesn't stop you from BELIEVING, tho. They aren't interchangable.

Dogfish · 01-08-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

I think this sentence belies that claim: “But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”; a claim the the Son of Man has that power, not just God.

Jesus claimed to have the same power that the Pharisees knew only God could have. When the Pharisees say, "Only God can forgive sins," Jesus, responds, "Which is easier: to forgive sin or to heal." His point was that anyone can say, "Your sins are forgiven," and who can tell if they are, but if a person heals a person, all can look at the man to see that he has been healed. Jesus healed the paralytic to make his point and the Pharisees understood that He was not only claiming to be God but doing that which only God can do.

Maybe he claimed to have the power that the Pharisees THOUGHT only god could have. Does the bible say the knowledge of the Pharisees was perfect?

Dogfish · 01-08-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

If all is predetermined, why are you discussing it on a message board? You want to gloat to the unsaved?

Just want you to understand the obvious. If you can see that God has not saved you, what prevents you complaining to God about it and doing something to change your situation? Only yourself.

And predeterminaton, of course.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.