Duvduv

I have read and listened a great deal to various interpretations of how the break occurred originally between Sunni and Shia Muslims. Has there been any new and novel ideas about it, i.e. as to whether or not the fight over the succession to Mohammed was actually a myth insofar as it was the starting point for the myriad theological differences?
I know Sunni Muslims who are thoroughly convinced that Shia Islam is in fact a different religion resembling conventional Islam.

DCHindley

Duv,

I had a friend in college who came from Iran who was, of course, Shia. Clueless as I was then, I mentioned to him that the only other Muslim I had met was a high school exchange student from Turkey (which is predominantly Sunni). It was clear from his rather dismissive response that HE didn't consider her a real Muslim. That was how I was introduced to the existence of the two major sects of Islam.

As far as how the division occurred, it reminds me of how the reformed Church of Latter Day saints (I haven't kept up with what they call themselves now), which on Joseph Smith's death followed one of his sons rather than the leader elected by the elders as President. I believe that the Shia sect followed Muhammad's son (Ali?) rather than the Caliph selected by Muhammed himself or elected by the sheikhs (I do not recall offhand which way the selection process took).

As far as I can tell from reading the commentary of my E.T. of the Koran, the history of Muhammed and the development of Islam is pretty definite and not subject to dispute, either by Muslims or by historians. Muslims do not shy away from relating their history without sugar coating, unlike Christians and Jews.

DCH

stephan huller

The term shia inevitably has its roots in the faction within Islam that paid particular devotion to Ali the cousin of Muhammad. Shīʻatu ʻAlī (شيعة علي), meaning "followers of Ali", "faction of Ali", or "party of Ali". In the case of the Alawites the devotion is so extreme it includes attributing divinity to Ali and at least two other figures in early Islam. Alawites also drink wine and have a strong interest in astrology. From my understanding the term shi'i changed over time. It was originally associated with the extremists who said Muhammad was divine or had divine attributes and then because associated with the more normative Shia who call the extremists ghulat (but now accept the Alawites as good Muslims owing to a ruling by Al Sadr the father).

Ktotwf

Why is Sunni so much more popular than Shia?

DCHindley

Possibly same reason that LDS is far more prevalent than RLDS. DCH

Huon

Banu Quraish was the dominant tribe of Mecca. It was both the tribe to which the Prophet Muhammad belonged and his chief antagonist in the Quraish-Muslim Wars.
The Quraish had become a prominent tribe in Mecca before the birth of Muhammad and essentially ruled the city. Before Muhammad's birth, the tribe had split into different clans.

The Umayyads and the Hashimites both descended from a common ancestor Abd-Munaf. Hashim was a great man of the line, and his descendants were known as Hashimites.

Abd-Munaf > Hashim > Abdul Muttalib > Abdullah > The Holy Prophet
Abd-Munaf > Hashim > Abdul Muttalib > Abu Talib + Fatima > Ali
Abd-Munaf > Hashim > Asad > Fatima + Abu Talib > Ali

Another son of Abd Munaf was Abd-Shams, whose son was Umayya. His descendants were known as Umayyads.

Muhammad had 3 sons and 4 daughters, Ruqayyah (died 624), Umm Kulthum (died 624 or 630), Zainab (died ?) and Fatima, the youngest daughter.
When Fatima had come of marriageable age, Abu Bakr and Umar asked for her hand. The Holy Prophet made no answer. Some time later, he married Fatima to his cousin Ali.

In 622 CE, Muhammad moved from Mecca to Medina, and the Muslims of Mecca, i.e., the Muhajirun (the Emigrants), also migrated to Medina. These inhabitants of Mecca were called the Ansar (the Helpers).

When Muhammad died, in 632, he left no male heir (his 3 sons had died very young), only Fatima, and cousins. His religious and political heir was not clearly known to the muslim community.

Probably, Ali expected that he would be the successor of Muhammad. But a small group of Muhajirun elected Abu Bakr, and Ali felt that he had not the military strength to fight against Abu Bakr.

The first caliph (khalifah means "successor") was Abu Bakr, leader of the Muhajirun in 632. Abu Bakr was a rich merchant of Mecca. He was the fourth person to accept Islam, and was the first person outside the family of Muhammad to become a Muslim. His daughter Aisha was married to Muhammad. There were a number of Muslims who felt that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Muhammad's cousin and husband of Fatima, daughter of Muhammad and his first wife Khadidjah, should have been the new leader. They initially refused to take the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr and were known as the Shi'at Ali, or followers of Ali. Ali himself refused to take the oath. After a period of time Ali and his party were forced to submit. Abu Bakr died in 634.

The second caliph was Umar (634-644). Umar was appointed by Abu Bakr as his successor. Umar ibn al-Khattāb was one of Muhammad's close companions. In 625, Umar's daughter Hafsah was married to Muhammad.

The third caliph was Uthmān ibn ‘Affān, another Muhajir. Uthman was selected caliph by a committee of six rich and powerful men appointed by Umar. Uthman belonged to the Umayyad branch of the Quraish tribe, and was Muhammad’s nephew. During his caliphate the Umayyads gained in power at the cost of the Hashimites (Ali). The government of Othman was accused of nepotism and corruption. In 656, the malcontents from Egypt, Kufa, and Basra marched to Madina. Uthman was murdered during a riot.

Ali was elected caliph by a majority of the Muhajirun and Ansar who were present in Medina and had contributed to the assassination of Uthman. The Umayyads by and large abstained from participating in the process of election. After the assassination of Othman most of them had escaped to Syria.

In 640, Muawiyah ibn Abi-Sufyan, an Umayyad cousin to Uthman, had been appointed Governor of Syria by Umar. In 657, Muawiyah tried to get his revenge on Ali at the indecisive battle of Siffin.

Ali was killed in 661 by a Kharijite (litterally “those who go out”, secessionists) with a poisoned sword and died.
The next caliph was Muawiyah ibn Abi-Sufyan.

PhilosopherJay

Hi DCHindley,

I believe all the founding myths of Islam are in doubt with historians including the existence of anybody named Muhammed in the Seventh century

Here are a couple of interesting sites:

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/04/21/...ditched-islam/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Que...8Ibn_Warraq%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

http://magazine.uchicago.edu/1108/in...-origins.shtml

It is curious that the first pseudo-biographies of Muhammad were written about 150 years after his alleged death. This is pretty much the time frame for the gospels, the first pseudo-biographies of Jesus.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Duvduv

Jay, the wikipedia article or historicity does not seem to question the validity of the existence of Muhammad as person. Of course from a Jewish perspective there is a difference from the issue of Yeshu. The rabbinical teachers in Babylonia who might have discussed this issue (a century or two after the Talmud was completed) do not question that Mohammed was a person. There are traditions that his father was an Arab trader and his mother a Jewish woman.

With regard to the Quran itself, one of the most interesting things is how many things in the Quran can be identified as directly coming from the Midrashim, especially Midrasha Rabba on Genesis and Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer. Of course some have argued that as a camel driver in a caravan between Arabia and Damascus it is more than likely that Mohammed (whether or not he was a Jew by birth) encountered Jews and heard many biblical stories arising from the midrashim, perhaps around a campfire. Now does that suggest that he woke up one day and decided to produce a new religion? Muslims say that he could not read or write. So the entire background picture of what led to the emergence of the Quran is shrowded in mystery.
Is it possible much of the teachings originated in older philo-judaic material among Arab monotheists? Either way, how did it happen? Did Mohammed hire a team of writers? Is there any documented source describing an alternative narrative to the Muslim one of how the Quran emerged?