Solo

Yes, that's fair except my sarcastic comment was aiming at two things: one, Dawkins' bizzare project of claiming Jesus for atheism, and two, (as sine qua non for 'one') his apparent belief that atheist confession did not exist in antiquity.

Jiri

bacht

Sheshbazzar do you see Christianity and Islam as later vehicles for propagating the original Jewish morality? For a long time I've considered that the Christians preserved something of the Mosaic monotheism into the post-pagan Mediterranean.

Of course Jesus adds the supernatural promise of afterlife, but the core Xtian and Muslim teachings come ultimately from the Torah don't they? Or is this a typical misunderstanding of Judaism?

Toto

1. There is a group that calls itself "Atheists for Jesus" (their website is an on and off affair.)

2. Dawkins and others trace modern atheism to Darwin. Before Darwin, there was no explanation for the existence of an apparent designer/engineer for nature, so there were Deists, but not atheists in the modern sense.

Sheshbazzar

Only in the sense that Christianity and Islam both derive foundational origins from the earlier Hebrew/Jewish prototype.
However, morality in the ancient world was by no means invented by, or the exclusive province of the Jews or of Jewish religion, and much of what is now described as being of 'Jewish' origin, was actually adapted and adopted by the Hebrews (only much latter transitioning into the developed religion called 'Judaism') from earlier and contemporary cultures.
As such, the Big Three religions of Western popularity represent only the major surviving religions of the ANE, and all contain elements derived from a variety of earlier religions, philosophies, and sources.

The 'Mosaic Monotheism' was a tough sell to the Hebrew peoples. Looking at The Bible (Tanaka) from a different perspective, all of those verses about Israel 'backsliding' and 'worshipping other gods' is evidence of just how long and how hard the religion of 'Judaism' was resisted by the Hebrew/Israelite peoples, until they were finally overcame by force and subjugated by the Judaic religious/political machine.
Constantine and the RCC possessing a efficient military machine, proceeded much faster in their conquest, domination, subjugation and elimination of 'pagan' (that is to say, of the 'country') religions.
Christianity was not morally superior, and many of the ancient Greek/Roman Philosophies held much higher standards of ethics and morality than those imposed by Christianity.
Why are we on this Forum? is it not for the very fact that we ourselves recognise that the teachings of these major religions DO NOT reflect the highest standards of ethics and morality, and are not at all what they are cracked up to be? It is my own integrity, my ethics and my morality that prevents me from being converted and absorbed by one or another of them. None of them are 'good enough' to garner my admiration or allegiance.

Yes, they were 'cribbed' from that source (and others) I don't think such an observation would represent a 'misunderstanding of Judaism', as the beliefs of these goyim are not 'Judaism', and Judaism has little possibility or way of controlling the flights of fancy of non-Jewish religions, and they have enough trouble with trying to define, and to police the limits of their own 'borders', "Who is a Jew?"


Sheshbazzar
-read my Profile-

No Robots

It is, of course, absurd to claim that there was no atheism in the ancient world. There were many thinkers who went beyond deism, rejecting the idea of a creator, holding instead that the universe was self-creating and eternal.

Christ's atheism, however, was a spiritual atheism, not a material one. His war was of one kind of atheism, ie. spiritual, against another, ie. material. If spiritual atheism seems like an oxymoron, take a look at the work of Meister Eckhart:

The soul desires the all-highest and will not suffer God to be above itself.

Clivedurdle

Smiting evil, doing good, hoping for a reward. Maybe it is all grown up fairy stories, stuff to get us through the days and nights.

The snag is those who take it too seriously and confuse fantasy and reality.

Barefoot Bree

Sheshbazzar: :notworthy: I'm impressed. That's the closest thing to they way I think about things that I've read in a long time. :notworthy:

No Robots

Wow, you sound like a right, regular paragon. Have they found out about you yet?

aa5874

But this the crux of the matter, how is it that Christians, after 2000 years, cannot decide or are divided on the nature of Jesus?

The Church writers claimed it was agreed that Jesus was divine, that is, Jesus was without doubt a God, who created the heavens and earth.

If Jesus was just a mere man, then the NT and Church writings are no good, since they reflect the teachings of a God.

For example, if Jesus was just a man, then these words by Jesus are absolute stupidity, but if by a God, then absolutely astounding.

Mark 9:31 - Mt 12:40 -
No sane human being would ever dream of making such a dumb statement. Jesus, if only human, has shown he was the dumbest a......hole in the history of mankind.

Jesus was either a God or the dumbest a...hole there ever was.

Barefoot Bree

Well, you've hit on one of the major sticking points for a lot of us deconverts, aa. Truly, if any of this were real, the Truth (tm), surely it would not be in question? Surely God, if he really did exist, would be able to put the Truth (tm) out there in such a way as to be obvious to everyone on earth, same as the sky is blue. Therefore, reason we deconverts, none of it is true.

The biggest question for me is why the majority of people sharing this earth with me don't understand that the same way I do. That one I still grapple with.

But one has to realize this as a brute fact: no two people anywhere in the world have the exact same set of religious beliefs. Even basic concepts such as Christ's nature have been argued over for two thousand years, with no agreement between even a simple majority of the religion's adherents. And the same thing is true for every concept, every idea, every 'fact', every tiny bit, of every single religion or belief system ever in existence since time immemorial.