judge

Thanks for the link..I had not seen it.

But the arguments do not refute the idea that things commonly attributed to greeks are not always greek.

spin

While I certainly have sympathy with this -- I think you are ultimately correct --, the road is a lot windier.

The notion of the logos is entwined with Jewish thought as judge alludes, though in both Greek and Hebrew.

Wisdom (hkmh) comes from the mouth of god (Prv 2:6). As Sirach's personification of wisdom, "I came forth from the mouth of the most high" (Sir 24:3). She was "created before all other things" (Sir 1:4). The Wisdom of Solomon tells us, 7:22, that Wisdom (sofia) was the fashioner of all things. Wisdom is the word of god.

When Jn starts:

in the beginning was the logos

we see wisdom, who was the first made of creation, there at the beginning with god, and because wisdom came from the mouth of god, she was divine.

Both the writer of Jn and Philo wrote in that philosophical context. This is not to detract that the ideas infiltrated the Jewish speculative wisdom tradition from the Platonists, nor that Philo's use of it was not further heavily influenced by the Platonic tradition, but that both writers were well within a Jewish cultural context when they wrote about the logos.


spin

Diogenes the Cynic

I thought the Trojan horse was invented by Virgil.

S.C.Carlson

Parli italiano? Non lo sapevo.

Stefano

spin

Ma non e' colpa mia. Stavo nel posto giusto al momento spagliato. E' la verita'.


spin

cass256

I have alwasy thought the first part of John was Greek in thought, but to the point where he wants Jesus to be God, and not merely human.

and God said let there be light. Beyone a word being spoken by God to create, we also have the idea that the knowledge from God came as a "word", or became his "Word" when spoken by his prophets. So a word from god is more than just a word.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 Genesis 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.


Moses was the "Word' of God. Baaalam recieved the "Word"



29 Numbers 22:38 And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

30 Numbers 23:5 And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.

The prophets became the Word of God. John's idea of Jesus being the Logos, would be "Word" in any language and still leave him fully human, despite what John might have been wanting to have people believe. When the Word was with/or in a prophet they became the Word of "God"..

Loomis

I think it is Hebrew in thought. I think its very consistent with the theology of Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

Have you read my thread Scrutinize my hypothesis on the Gospel of John?

There has been plenty of speculation from OT scholars that in some circles, Yahweh was thought of as one of El’s seventy sons.

My hypothesis just carries this idea over to the Gospel of John.

It looks to me like GJohn’s version of Jesus was a humanized version of Yahweh, who in turn was a son of El.

It makes a lot of sense to me, and I am desperately looking for someone to double-check my work, and intelligent feedback.

- Loomis

cass256

i will check it out. I suppose it should be pointed out on the "word of the Lord" quote that YHWH or Yahweh was the "Lord", in the Hebrew text. So it WAS yahweh who the "Word' was related to. Also, that the Canaanite creator of the earth was EL and not Yahweh the lessor god.

andrewcriddle

No See for example Odyssey Book 4 lines 265-289.

Andrew Criddle

Pilate

Diogenes,
I will give you the exact place to find this quotation because I believe you will appreciate it. Philo, On the Confusion of Tongues, chap. VII, (28).
I am glad to hear that you are an independent thinker. The moderators here are censoring my criticism of spin. <edit> I believe spin lacks in knowledge, he has a false sense ofconfidence (the moderators are to be blamed for this), and if the moderators stop editing what I write I will expose him point by point. I am warning viewers not to follow him and take his assertions as authoritative. They are mere assertions. Enjoy yourselves here and don't take these discussions seriously.
Diogenes,
just so you know where I am coming from: I am not a fundie who came here to beat the infidels. I am here to bring equal treatment for everyone. To the extent that the moderators will allow me (perhaps some day they will join me :thumbs: ), I will fight for equal treament, and will have fun doing it! :wave: And when I say 'fight" I mean comedy: satire.
Satire is a democratic tool. Presently, on this forum we we have theocracy: they say because they own this place, visitors must be obeisant, let the Guru redicule them, but don't redicule the Guru's ways and writings.