Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-16-2003, 11:50 AM

If the mods think this would do better in GRD, please feel free to move it.

I clicked on a button somewhere, and now I am getting periodic email from Bishop Spong inviting me to subscribe to his service for $24.95 per year (a savings of $10!) to receive emailed essays like this:

Quote:

"This is the word of the Lord"

That is the liturgical phrase used in Christian churches to mark the end of a reading from the Bible. It is a strange, even a misleading, phrase. Yet Sunday after Sunday it is repeated, reinforcing in the psyches of worshipers a rather outdated attitude toward Holy Scripture.

In many of its details, the Bible is simply wrong! Epilepsy is not caused by demon possession. David did not write the Psalms. The earth is not the center of the universe. On other issues of great public concern, the Bible is no longer even regarded as moral. Its verses have been used to affirm war, slavery, segregation and apartheid. It defines women as inferior creatures and suggests that homosexual persons be put to death.

Church people try to ignore or suppress these biblical deficiencies, but when the Scriptures are read to a listening congregation the response is increasing incredulity. Still they respond, "This is the word of the Lord."

Outside the church, this presumed authority of Scripture is generally ignored. Secular people live in a post-religious world where the idea that a literary work, written between 1000 B.C.E. and 135 C.E., can be "the Word of God," is simply too far-fetched to believe. This obvious ecclesiastical power play is no longer even passively accepted as benign. One has only to chart the evil and pain that many people have endured in history because someone regarded the Bible as the "Word of God." That claim is no longer regarded as valid.

Is it worth $24.95 to find out how Bishop Spong resolves this dilemma so he can still call himself a Christian? To be fair, the $24.95 also includes:

Bishop Spong's poignant perspective on Christianity and the news
A new essay every week for the entire year
A special weekly Q&A feature where Bishop Spong answers your questions

I guess one thing that holds me back is the thought of an elderly man being poignant. On the other hand, from a political and social perspective, the big divide in America is not between believers and nonbelievers, it is between fundamentalists on the one hand, and religious modernists on the other, whether the modernists believe in something or not. So I should be sympathetic to Spong's crusade. And I know that Episcopalians have included some very freethinking individuals, including Alan Watts, and that Robert Price attends an Episcopalian Church. . .

Rick Sumner · 09-16-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
I guess one thing that holds me back is the thought of an elderly man being poignant. On the other hand, from a political and social perspective, the big divide in America is not between believers and nonbelievers, it is between fundamentalists on the one hand, and religious modernists on the other, whether the modernists believe in something or not. So I should be sympathetic to Spong's crusade. And I know that Episcopalians have included some very freethinking individuals, including Alan Watts, and that Robert Price attends an Episcopalian Church. . .

No, the big divide is between polarized extremes--FidAl Franken on one hand, and Ku Klux Coulter on the other. "Religious modernists" seems to imply some sort of centrism that isn't there, by and large.

Is it worth $24.95? That works out to about five grand Canadian, so probably not. But Spong's doing a necessary thing--were I in need of liberal apologetics (and getting paid in American money:P ), it probably would be.

Regards,
Rick

boneyard bill · 09-16-2003, 04:41 PM

Toto asks:

Quote:

Is it worth $24.95 to find out how Bishop Spong resolves this dilemma so he can still call himself a Christian?

Who needs it? The problem here isn't that Bishop Spong is marketing his own brand of Christianity. The problem is that he isn't marketing Christianity at all. He is marketing modern secular views and calling it Christianity. I don't need Bishop Spong to advise me on secularism.

If I were to attend a Church, it is because I accept the authority of the Bible or the Priest, or the Creeds of the Church. But there has to be some authoritative element to the ritual or the teaching or some part of the process. Bishops Spong's Biblical expertise is of no value in promoting secularism.

It's sort of like attending a Unitarian Church. I've never quite understood why anyone bothers.

Peter Kirby · 09-16-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boneyard bill
It's sort of like attending a Unitarian Church. I've never quite understood why anyone bothers.

All the benefits of your average church, without the odious indoctrination?

best,
Peter Kirby

Doctor X · 09-16-2003, 04:52 PM

Yeah . . . but if you cannot burn heretics, what is the point?

--J.D.

09-16-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Yeah . . . but if you cannot burn heretics, what is the point?

--J.D.

Good point but unless you are right others can't be wrong and why have an opinion if you think it might be wrong?

Not much has changed with the fate of heretics because, at least as I see it, many of them have gathered so much sola scriptura brushwood that it keeps them tied to the foot of the cross where they burn with the desire to ascend but just can't because their sin nature is holding them down.

Toto · 09-16-2003, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rickmsumner
No, the big divide is between polarized extremes--FidAl Franken on one hand, and Ku Klux Coulter on the other. "Religious modernists" seems to imply some sort of centrism that isn't there, by and large.

. . .

If you think Al Franken is an extremist on the order of Ann Coulter, God should help you (or the invisible pink unicorn, depending on your choice.)

Doctor X · 09-16-2003, 05:52 PM

Toto:

To be fair, he is.

Burn the both of them!

--J.D.

Rick Sumner · 09-16-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
If you think Al Franken is an extremist on the order of Ann Coulter, God should help you (or the invisible pink unicorn, depending on your choice.)

Absolutely he is. The pair of them are morons preaching politics for the politically uninformed, and about as extremist as one can go in either direction without becoming fascist/socialist, depending on your choice.

What is truly frightening is how many people let their political positions be dictated by comedians--which just goes to show my initial point: There are few centrists in America.

Regards,
Rick

God Fearing Atheist · 09-16-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rickmsumner
Absolutely he is. The pair of them are morons preaching politics for the politically uninformed, and about as extremist as one can go in either direction without becoming fascist/socialist, depending on your choice.

What is truly frightening is how many people let their political positions be dictated by comedians--which just goes to show my initial point: There are few centrists in America.

Regards,
Rick

Ahh...back to the Franken bashing, eh Caldolf?

-GFA

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09-16-2003, 04:52 PM	#5
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Yeah . . . but if you cannot burn heretics, what is the point? --J.D.

09-16-2003, 05:52 PM	#8
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Toto: To be fair, he is. Burn the both of them! --J.D.

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