Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 03-28-2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Could this be more evidence for a Latin original text of Mark?

No.

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And that this text became authoritative when reconstructing all the other gospels?

No

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What on earth would cause people to name a fountain 'village'?

Not sure that ever took place. Not sure if its not the other way around because of the plentiful spring/water source there.

consolation
comfort
Field
fountain

Are all later personal translations by different sects and cultures from different time periods.

Was Josephus really there? I don't know. I think the later church fathers are using scripture as their primary source.

You don't leave many stones unturned in your search I'll give you that.

stephan huller · 03-28-2013, 07:56 PM

I think I found something equivalent to Origen and Jerome's 'field of beauty.' The Samaritans (in Arabic) reference the land between Gerizim and Ebal where Shechem stands as the field or 'meadow of beauty' (= Merj-el-Baha). http://books.google.com/books?id=690...erizim&f=false The Latin renders the same place as 'convallem illustrem.'

stephan huller · 03-28-2013, 08:24 PM

It is amazing to see how many of the Samaritan place names appear in the Targums. The Samaritans for instance call the same field 'the plain of vision' which is also preserved in the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan for Genesis 35:7:

Quote:

The God of eternity, whose name be Blessed for ever and ever, hath taught us precepts which are beautiful and statutes that are comely: He hath taught us the blessing of matrimony from Adam and his bride, as the scripture expoundeth. And the Word of the Lord blessed them, and the Word of the Lord said to them, Be strong and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it. He hath taught us to visit the afflicted, from our father Abraham the Righteous, when He revealed Himself to him in the plain of Vision, and gave him the precept of circumcision, and made him to sit in the door of his tent in the heat of the day; as the scripture expoundeth and saith, And the Word of the Lord revealed Himself to him in the plain of Vision. And again He hath taught us to bless those who mourn, from our father Jakob the Righteous: for He revealed Himself to him on his coming from Padan of Aram, when the way of the world had happened to Deborah, the nurse of Rivekah his mother, and Rahel died by him in the way, and Jakob our father sat weeping and bewailing her, and mourning and crying. Then wast Thou, O Lord of all worlds, in the perfection of Thy free mercies revealed to him, and didst comfort him, and blessing the mourners didst bless him concerning his mother, even as the scripture expoundeth and saith, The Word of the Lord revealed Himself unto Jakob the second time on his coming from Padan Aram, and blessed him."

Duvduv · 03-29-2013, 07:42 AM

Stephan, what is the original Samaritan terminology used here for the English, and is it referring to Abraham or Jacob? The Field of Vision does not correspond to the targums, since Targum Yonatan refers to Bethel as the place where the divine presence dwelling in Bethel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It is amazing to see how many of the Samaritan place names appear in the Targums. The Samaritans for instance call the same field 'the plain of vision' which is also preserved in the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan for Genesis 35:7:

Quote:

The God of eternity, whose name be Blessed for ever and ever, hath taught us precepts which are beautiful and statutes that are comely: He hath taught us the blessing of matrimony from Adam and his bride, as the scripture expoundeth. And the Word of the Lord blessed them, and the Word of the Lord said to them, Be strong and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it. He hath taught us to visit the afflicted, from our father Abraham the Righteous, when He revealed Himself to him in the plain of Vision, and gave him the precept of circumcision, and made him to sit in the door of his tent in the heat of the day; as the scripture expoundeth and saith, And the Word of the Lord revealed Himself to him in the plain of Vision. And again He hath taught us to bless those who mourn, from our father Jakob the Righteous: for He revealed Himself to him on his coming from Padan of Aram, when the way of the world had happened to Deborah, the nurse of Rivekah his mother, and Rahel died by him in the way, and Jakob our father sat weeping and bewailing her, and mourning and crying. Then wast Thou, O Lord of all worlds, in the perfection of Thy free mercies revealed to him, and didst comfort him, and blessing the mourners didst bless him concerning his mother, even as the scripture expoundeth and saith, The Word of the Lord revealed Himself unto Jakob the second time on his coming from Padan Aram, and blessed him."

stephan huller · 03-29-2013, 07:53 AM

no Bethel = altar at or near Gerizim. Moreh (not "Moriah") same thing

Duvduv · 03-29-2013, 08:54 AM

I don't understand. You were referencing the targums in relation to your discussion about the Field of Vision or Consolation and Kfar Nahum. Unless I got confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

no Bethel = altar at or near Gerizim. Moreh (not "Moriah") same thing

Chili · 03-29-2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The right answer is Capernaum = Village of Consolation. The standard explanation is that the village was named after an individual of that name. But I like to think about why people think what they think. Why does Origen think that the first word means 'field' rather than 'village.' I think the idea actually came from something in Heracleon's lost Commentary on the gospel. We start with Heracleon's Commentary as it was cited in Origen's Commentary on John:

The best way to put this is that Capernaum was home to Joseph as outsider to Jerusalem while in Egypt in Matthew. Accordingly in that same way is Capernaum desert as field for Mark while it was Bethany for Luke who kept his dogs or doubts in Bethsaida that effectively made Gerasene opposite to Galilee, as in a distant far to show degree of faith in action here.

So for Matthew it was where Jesus found refuse to lick his wounds, as those were many, I suppose, as those were the boils and sores our friend ralphellis writes about, and apparently wrote books on it in his claim to fame. These sores are those that come after the Wake that for Finnigan spelled heaven on earth instead of boils and sores to lick, that yes indeed grow with time itself that should not even exist in the promised land where they arrived after the wake . . . and so once again Capernaum is native to those who violated their own virginity by their forcefull entree into the promised land.

And so, yes, it is virgins that the thief in the night is after. And does that make sense to you?

Oh sorry, I should maybe add that we are talking about the essence of virginity here and not the physical that you may be thinking of.

stephan huller · 03-29-2013, 09:06 AM

Some more information that might be helpful:

Quote:

Dom Connolly remarks that in Ephrem's Commentary on the Story of the infirm man at the pool of Bethesda (John v; Moesinger, pp. 143 — 145) two points attract attention: 'i°. that Ephrem's copy of the Diatessaron contained the verse which tells of the moving of the water by an angel, and 2°. that in quoting our Lord's words to the infirm man Ephrem seems to confuse them with those addressed to the paralytic at Capernaum (Mt. ix 6 ; Mk. ii n ; Lk. v n). He cites the words thus ((Moesinger, p. 146): 'Surge, tolle grabbatum tuuvi et vade' ; 'Sta in pedibus, sume grabbatum tuum, et vade in do mum tuairC ; 'Is qui me sanavit, (Me) dixit mihi: Surge tolle lectum tuum et vade'. Dom Connolly adds that the Curetonian Syriac John v. 8 has a similar reading : 'Arise, take up thy bed and walk and go to thy house'.

He quotes further JACOB OF SERUG (c. 521) who sometimes made use of Tatian's Harmony, and who in a Homily 'on that Paralytic of thirty eight years whom our Lord healed" seems to identify the healing of the paralytic at Capernaum with that of the infirm man at Bethesda and says that 'there can be no reasonable doubt that he did so on the authority of the Diatessaron.' [Plooij, A Further Study of the Liege Diatessaron p. 20]

I am beginning to wonder if there were two narratives originally, one which originally identified Jesus's mission as beginning at Capernaum and another which began at Bethsaida. The argument which strengthens this is that the Marcionite gospel already substitutes 'Bethsaida' for Nazareth at the beginning of the gospel. Maybe Bethsaida was also there in place of Capernaum. In Biblical Hebrew field or country = שָׂדֶה (sadeh) and beth sadeh would be the rough equivalent of the Latin villa which shows up in Jerome's translation of Capernaum.

Unlike many of my tentative reconstructions of Hebrew names, Beth Sadeh is a relatively common one, being used as the name for many synagogues into the present era:

Just to make clear then Latin villa = "country house" (or in Hebrew 'house in the field') = Hebrew beth sadeh. FWIW in Mishnah Hebrew, “sadeh ba'al” or sadeh bet ba'al” is a terminus technicus for a field made fertile by rain.

Chili · 03-29-2013, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Some more information that might be helpful:

Quote:

Dom Connolly remarks that in Ephrem's Commentary on the Story of the infirm man at the pool of Bethesda (John v; Moesinger, pp. 143 — 145) two points attract attention: 'i°. that Ephrem's copy of the Diatessaron contained the verse which tells of the moving of the water by an angel, and 2°. that in quoting our Lord's words to the infirm man Ephrem seems to confuse them with those addressed to the paralytic at Capernaum (Mt. ix 6 ; Mk. ii n ; Lk. v n). He cites the words thus ((Moesinger, p. 146): 'Surge, tolle grabbatum tuuvi et vade' ; 'Sta in pedibus, sume grabbatum tuum, et vade in do mum tuairC ; 'Is qui me sanavit, (Me) dixit mihi: Surge tolle lectum tuum et vade'. Dom Connolly adds that the Curetonian Syriac John v. 8 has a similar reading : 'Arise, take up thy bed and walk and go to thy house'.

He quotes further JACOB OF SERUG (c. 521) who sometimes made use of Tatian's Harmony, and who in a Homily 'on that Paralytic of thirty eight years whom our Lord healed" seems to identify the healing of the paralytic at Capernaum with that of the infirm man at Bethesda and says that 'there can be no reasonable doubt that he did so on the authority of the Diatessaron.' [Plooij, A Further Study of the Liege Diatessaron p. 20]

I am beginning to wonder if there were two narratives originally, one which originally identified Jesus's mission as beginning at Capernaum and another which began at Bethsaida. The argument which strengthens this is that the Marcionite gospel already substitutes 'Bethsaida' for Nazareth at the beginning of the gospel. Maybe Bethsaida was also there in place of Capernaum. In Biblical Hebrew field or country = שָׂדֶה (sadeh) and beth sadeh would be the rough equivalent of the Latin villa which shows up in Jerome's translation of Capernaum.

Unlike many of my tentative reconstructions of Hebrew names, Beth Sadeh is a relatively common one, being used as the name for many synagogues into the present era:

Just to make clear then Latin villa = "country house" (or in Hebrew 'house in the field') = Hebrew beth sadeh. FWIW in Mishnah Hebrew, “sadeh ba'al” or sadeh bet ba'al” is a terminus technicus for a field made fertile by rain.

Very interesting point you make, but if Marcion moved to Bethsaida from Capernaum does that not equal to the field of error if that is where Luke's Jesus kept his dogs in doubt.

stephan huller · 03-29-2013, 09:48 AM

From Connoly's original article:

Quote:

Tatian was bold enough to identify the paralytic of Capernaum with the infirm man at Bethesda, and to combine the two accounts. Yet it appears that is precisely what Tatian did do.

In the J. T.S. of July 1907 (vol. viii pp. 581 ff) I pointed out that Jacob of Serugh (t 521) sometimes made use of Tatian's Harmony, and apparently followed its order in a series of Homilies on the passion. Now in Bedjan's edition of the Homilies of Jacob there is one entitled 'On that paralytic of thirty-eight years whom our Lord healed ' (vol. iv pp. 701-724). The author begins by picturing the plight of the world, sick with sin and waiting to be healed by the waters of baptism. It resembles the ' paralytic ' who was waiting for the moving of the waters at Bethesda. I proceed to give in his own words an I proceed to give in his own words an outline of Jacob's treatment of this miracle. (p. 703) "The world resembled that sick man, who was paralysed by the sickness of which he was ailing : thirty-eight years had he been afflicted on the bed of disease, and then he was healed of his sickness. (p. 704)

For he also was waiting for the moving of the waters . . . and to Siloam he had recourse and took refuge, that it might heal his disease . . . And he was waiting for the moving of the waters, that by it he might be made sound The waters were moved with a mystery of Baptism ; and the first disease which went down was healed. The diseases of the world were surrounding that House of Kindness (Bith HesdA), and waiting for the moving of the waters to make them whole, (p. 705) The diseased were many that were to be healed by Siloam; and each disease was healed only at a long interval. The ailments and diseases were round about the baptism, they might be made whole ... By an angel the waters were moved there ; and the first who went down and bathed was healed . . . (p. 708) He (Jesus) took away the mystery from Siloam, that it should heal no more . . . He saw the sick lying in that House of Kindness {Bith Hesdd), and waiting for the moving of the waters to heal them . . . He saw the paralytic, whose diseases had vexed him a great while; and. He drew near to him to speak to him gently . . . He drew near to him then, and He asks ... him : ' If thou wouldst become whole (Jowl? \ -e\ .\.»), hide it not from me ' . . . (p. 709) ' Lord, I have no man to raise me up over the spring and, when the waters have moved, to throw me (uAioyjuj1) into it, that I may be healed. My limbs are paralysed, and to approach and push my way I am not able ; and caretakers (ko^ ».Sfl») are not found for me to stand up on my behalf.' . . . (p. 710) He drew near to him, and asks him, as ye have heard, if he would become whole Joon?) of his sickness ... 'If thou wouldst become whole, thou canst 2 : Thy sins are the cause of thy diseases, and they are forgiven thee (Mt ix 2, and parallels). Arise, be made sound (MV^Y) of f thy disease which ails thee : lo, I have given thee the power. Thy sins are forgiven : give thy consent to the healing.' (p. 711) Albeit (these words) were spoken to the paralytic alone, (yet) the whole world received tidings of its healing . . . ' With the cord of debts thou art tied, O man, and I loose thee. I ask of only that thou will, and I will heal thee ... If thou wouldst become whole (\ vn «N .. JooiLf), there is a means : thy debts are forgiven : do not resist me as to thy healing.' ...

(p. 712) He was asking him : 'If,' said He, 'thou wouldst, thou art 'If thou wouldst become whole, thou canst ... If thou wouldst, healing also is given thee.' . . . (p. 716) Our Lord says: 'Thy debts are forgiven, my son, be of good heart ' (cf. Mt. ix 3) . . . The head and chief of physicians visited the paralytic, and forgiveness of debts He held out (and) gave to him with healing. In the beginning of His healing He first visited that festering sea of sins ; for it is the cause of all diseases . . . ' Thy debts are forgiven,' He said to him that was paralysed . . . Sins He forgave him, from which also the sickness was sprung, that by forgiveness he might be made sound (MV^-i) before the healing, (p. 717). The Good Physician bound up the soul before the body, that it first might become whole which was (first) sick . . . ' Be of good heart, thy debts are forgiven ' (Mt. ix 3), He was saying to him ; and they that

Thus far Jn. v 1-7 : except that the sick man ia called a 'paralytic'.

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03-28-2013, 07:56 PM	#22
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I think I found something equivalent to Origen and Jerome's 'field of beauty.' The Samaritans (in Arabic) reference the land between Gerizim and Ebal where Shechem stands as the field or 'meadow of beauty' (= Merj-el-Baha). http://books.google.com/books?id=690...erizim&f=false The Latin renders the same place as 'convallem illustrem.'

03-29-2013, 07:53 AM	#25
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	no Bethel = altar at or near Gerizim. Moreh (not "Moriah") same thing

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