Toto

Edersheim is online here: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah

If anyone would like to examine Metacrock's claims, the 456 alleged references to Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures are here The first one states: which strikes me as rather, um, imaginative.

Metacrock

the problem is Rabbis live in a world of their own. Some of the interpritations they will give for things just don't make any kind of sense to uninitated people like you or I. But these are listed in the Talmud as Messianich by verious Rabbis, even though some of them dont' seem so.

Some you can figure out if you know what to look for. For example the "root of jesse" in Chp 11 is clearly Messianich because any kind of reference to roots, or branches, stumps, or anything dealing with a growing tree is a symbol of Messiah. The Root of Jesse,the Branch of David, these are all epitphets of Messiah.

Metacrock

If the very represntitives of that religion say a passage is Messianich, it doesnt' matter if it looks logical or not. If they take it to be so, who are outsiders to say it isn't? and if those of the first century expected something of the Messiah based upon that passage, then the fulfillment of that passage is cerianly proof enough that said indivudal is the Messiah. it doesn't matter what we think of it. doesn't matter if it looks logical to us or not.






Iv'e reserached this stuff with Rabbis. My Messiah pages are Rabbi approved. You dont' know anything about it. My Messiah pages are so good Messianich Jews asked to copy them for their sites.




Als

that is your assumption about the nature of the Gospels. it really shows where your head is at--But the fact of it is, I did NOT say that it was a fulfillment. I don't argue that.

what I argue is a lot more sopheticated than that, I doubt you would even understand it.




My argument is that nothing more can be asked of a tradition than that it fulfill its basic assumptions. If Christian context of messiah fits the expectations of first century Judaism better than modern Judaism fits it, then we can ask for nothing more from Jesus in terms of his Messianich credentials. It doesn't what you think about it, doestn' matter if you think it's logical or not. The simple fact is if it fits the expectations of the frist century Jews an Jewish christians Jesus has the burden of cretentials and no challenge can be made. It doesnt' need to be prove as some supernatural fulfillment of prophecy, that's irrelivant.

My reasons for understanding Christianity as the most effocacious religious tradition totally allude you.






I do apologize. There's no excuse for that. I get hyper. bare you no ill will. I really don't.

Metacrock

No it is not! The SS is never identified as Israel. Israel has a part in it, but is distinct. You can read on that page I posted here some arguments about it. But there's vast Rabbinical evidence that it was though of as Messiah unitl the middle ages. In fact the majority still taught that until the 19th century. It was a Mideval Rabbie named Roashi who started to change that.


here are some quotes from Rabbis about it:


http://www.geocities.com/metagetics/rabbis_on_is53.htm

edited to replace extensive cut and paste with URL

Metacrock

http://www.geocities.com/metagetics/rabbis_on_is53.htm

Metacrock

See the URL in the previous post.

mod note: please do not cut and paste entire web pages.

Metacrock

Argument: There is a dialogue pattern in the book which reflects the interchange between Messiah and Israel, to disrupt the patter would underine the whole message of the book; according to the patter, and in keeping with the roles, the Messiah has to be the object of focuss and thus, the Suffering Servant.



http://www.geocities.com/metacrock20.../Servant1.html

Diogenes the Cynic

No, the dialogue is between God and Israel. It repeatedly says so. God keeps saying, "you are my servant Israel." It does not say one word about a Messiah.

Metacrock

no, you are wrong! why dont' you actually read the material? how it is that you think you can answer my arguments you haven't even read them is beyond me. But Rabbis in the Talmud identify which passages are of the Messiah.

I quoted 165 Rabbinical quotes saying the Suffering Servant is Messiah.

Isaiah says Branch, root of Jesse, that's know to be Messiah. That's what they called him, common knowledge.

Metacrock

what a fix. That's just condmening me to lose. You know atheists will never click on a link. They will never read it, so they will neve know. They will dismiss it out of hand the way they always do.


the mods just couldn't stand to see your one little deniel burried under three pages of counter evidence. So a year from now i'll make this arugment and the atheists will say "did so and so disprove this by not reading your evdience?"