BH

If anyone here knows Hebrew please respond.

In Jeremiah 8:8 is Jeremiah saying that the law was made in vanity because the Jews were not obeying it, or does it mean that scribes were actually altering the text?

Or, is the original language not clear enough to determine just what was meant?

Ray Moscow

Hi, BH.

I don't know much Hebrew, but looking at the KJV English:

It sounds to me that "Jeremiah" is criticising a rival party (including "scribes") who claims authority through their supposed knowledge of the Torah. In the next verse he says that these supposed authorities have actually rejected the Word.

So, this is not a criticism of the Torah or an accusation of altering the Torah, but rather a criticism of a rival faction who claims an authority that "Jeremiah" says is bogus.

Ray

Clouseau

Jeremiah was pointing out that a claim was made for wisdom, for the orthodoxy of the Law, but in reality, an interpretation, the 'writers' false pen' was the authority used. This is an early sign of the the unappointed scribes whose influence was to become preponderant in Israel, though in this case, the priests and Levites must have been equally implicated.

'Why then have these people turned away? Why does Jerusalem always turn away? They cling to deceit; they refuse to return. I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No-one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle. Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the Lord. How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?' Jer 8:5-9 NIV

Lugubert

My Hebrew is not yet enough to arrive at an independent conclusion. But I can see the problem, in that there are only five Hebrew words following hinneh (the KVJ Lo), which must make any interpretation problematic.

The Revised English Bible has for the second part of 8:8
That corresponds nicely to a footnote reading of the recent Swedish Bibel 2000, approx.
together with a remark that the meaning of the source text is uncertain. Again in my English, the inline version is
I think that supports

Clouseau

There really is no problem if one reads the context, which starts much earlier.

'A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: the prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way.' Jer 5:30-31

BH

I see what you are saying Ray.

However, wouldn't an ultimate rejection of the word of YHWH be to actually change his words in the text?

BH

To me this seems to strenghthen the case they may have actually been changing the text though.

Anymore opinions out there?

BH

Could you be a little bit more specific. I can see where it could be the literal law being corrupted.

Jeremiah started his temple discourse a chapter or so earlier, and chapter 8 is thought of as part of this discourse by most commentators. He mentions the people worshipping other gods besides YHWH, sacrficing to them, ect. If the authorities were so far gone concerning protecting YHWHism and let these other religions in, and were no longer actually using "YHWH's Law" as the law of the land anymore but their own, perhaps they no longer cared if scribes were changing that law as they saw fit.

Clouseau

[QUOTE=BH;4824009]I wonder what you think the original text said.

Ray Moscow

Of course the texts were changed over time. However, I doubt that is what "Jeremiah" was criticising.

I think you should tell everyone here what you are hinting at: a confirmation of the Islamic doctrine that Allah gave the Jews revelations, which they then corrupted.

There is no evidence of the former.

Ray