Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richard Carrier · 12-01-2003, 09:49 AM

For those who may be interested and able to attend, I (Richard Carrier) will be giving a 45-minute talk on "Miracles and the Historical Method" for Atheists and Other Freethinkers of Sacramento (California) this December 14th. The talk is open to the public. For full details see:

http://ourtown.sacbee.com/events.wsi...250&event_id=4

I delivered the same address to a group in New Jersey some years ago and it was well received. I have plans to deliver the same talk in Manhatten for the New York Atheists at the end of February, and then possibly in San Francisco a month or two after that (I say "possibly" because the group there might choose a different topic).

lpetrich · 12-01-2003, 03:29 PM

I don't know if I'll be able to make it; it would be an all-day trip for me. However, I've found a Holiday Inn at 300 J Street in Sacramento, and the address (24th St. + 3rd Ave.) looks like it's a few blocks east of the new light-rail stop at 4th St. and the railroad tracks.

But a San Francisco location would be much easier on me.

I look forward to such examples as Alexander of Abonutichus -- if Lucian of Samosata had given a fair picture of him, he had been a pagan Benny Hinn.

Apikorus · 12-01-2003, 03:40 PM

God bless you, Richard Carrier!

I mean...er...good luck.

Doctor X · 12-01-2003, 03:46 PM

Are we allowed to bring fruit?

--J.D.

offa · 12-01-2003, 05:03 PM

east coast west coast, and I am in the middle, oh well

SLD · 12-02-2003, 07:26 PM

You're a wuss, Richard.

Come down here to Birmingham, Alabama and give that talk!!!

SLD

Plump-DJ · 12-03-2003, 07:13 AM

Richard,

Just wondering If I could ask a question.

The link above mentions a 'tool kit' that you use (i assume) to test the historocity of various miracle claims however I was wondering wether or you had applied the criteria to other characters and events from the same period of history outside the 'miraculous'?

I mean can we really come up with a criteria that is objective, that is not based on logical fallacy, that does not destroy what we already know about history and can show that a miracle did or did not occur?

PDJ

Vorkosigan · 12-03-2003, 02:26 PM

Yes, plump. It's called "science."

Plump-DJ · 12-03-2003, 03:34 PM

Vork,

Science deals in mechanisms and repeatability most of all, history does not. The historical method is clearly different from the scientific one, even if your premises are discovered using the scientific method.

So if the skeptic wants to apply his or her own criteria to history (rather then using a standard criteria already employed by historians which is shown to work) and wants to be taken seriously they need a real methodology. They have to show that 1) it works on events we already know to be true from that period in time and 2) is objective and not based on the skeptic's subjective preferences.

Without that it's just good old fashioned subjectivism, which is fallacious.

lpetrich · 12-04-2003, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plump-DJ
Science deals in mechanisms and repeatability most of all, history does not. The historical method is clearly different from the scientific one, even if your premises are discovered using the scientific method.

Does that mean that there can be no such thing as a historical science?

And does that mean that geology is not a science, since there is only one Earth?

12-01-2003, 09:49 AM	#1
Richard Carrier Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: California, USA Posts: 338	Richard Carrier Speaking in Sacramento For those who may be interested and able to attend, I (Richard Carrier) will be giving a 45-minute talk on "Miracles and the Historical Method" for Atheists and Other Freethinkers of Sacramento (California) this December 14th. The talk is open to the public. For full details see: http://ourtown.sacbee.com/events.wsi...250&event_id=4 I delivered the same address to a group in New Jersey some years ago and it was well received. I have plans to deliver the same talk in Manhatten for the New York Atheists at the end of February, and then possibly in San Francisco a month or two after that (I say "possibly" because the group there might choose a different topic).

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12-01-2003, 03:29 PM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I don't know if I'll be able to make it; it would be an all-day trip for me. However, I've found a Holiday Inn at 300 J Street in Sacramento, and the address (24th St. + 3rd Ave.) looks like it's a few blocks east of the new light-rail stop at 4th St. and the railroad tracks. But a San Francisco location would be much easier on me. I look forward to such examples as Alexander of Abonutichus -- if Lucian of Samosata had given a fair picture of him, he had been a pagan Benny Hinn.

12-01-2003, 03:40 PM	#3
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	God bless you, Richard Carrier! I mean...er...good luck.

12-01-2003, 03:46 PM	#4
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Are we allowed to bring fruit? --J.D.

12-01-2003, 05:03 PM	#5
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	east coast west coast, and I am in the middle, oh well

12-02-2003, 07:26 PM	#6
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	You're a wuss, Richard. Come down here to Birmingham, Alabama and give that talk!!! SLD

12-03-2003, 07:13 AM	#7
Plump-DJ Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Oztralia (Aussie Aussie Aussie) Posts: 153	Richard, Just wondering If I could ask a question. The link above mentions a 'tool kit' that you use (i assume) to test the historocity of various miracle claims however I was wondering wether or you had applied the criteria to other characters and events from the same period of history outside the 'miraculous'? I mean can we really come up with a criteria that is objective, that is not based on logical fallacy, that does not destroy what we already know about history and can show that a miracle did or did not occur? PDJ

12-03-2003, 02:26 PM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Yes, plump. It's called "science."

12-03-2003, 03:34 PM	#9
Plump-DJ Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Oztralia (Aussie Aussie Aussie) Posts: 153	Vork, Science deals in mechanisms and repeatability most of all, history does not. The historical method is clearly different from the scientific one, even if your premises are discovered using the scientific method. So if the skeptic wants to apply his or her own criteria to history (rather then using a standard criteria already employed by historians which is shown to work) and wants to be taken seriously they need a real methodology. They have to show that 1) it works on events we already know to be true from that period in time and 2) is objective and not based on the skeptic's subjective preferences. Without that it's just good old fashioned subjectivism, which is fallacious.

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