Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Anyway, these people obviously suffer from Minimalist Eye Syndrom (MES)

wow, how original.

Have you guys sunk so low that you have to steal your insults from infidels?

The devil made me do it...:devil1:

makerowner · 02-13-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Exactly! Tyre remains until the final Judgement.
[snip crazy rant]

I'm not an expert like you, but I seem to recall something about a resurrection before the judgement?

sugarhitman · 02-13-2008, 07:58 AM

Ships are the most important item needed for a sea battle. Ezekiel does not even hint at such items when listing the war items of Nebby.

1. Horses
2. Chariots
3. Engines of war (Battering rams, catapults etc.)

Siege mounds, forts, are things used on the land. There is no mention of ships. (the critics have even suggested that there was a causeway)

Also listed is "much people" and "companies" there is no mention of many nations being with Neby. The destruction of Jerusalem was before the war against Tyre by Babylon. In Jeremiah the army of Babylon is not a multi-national force. It is referred to as Nebby's army, Babylon's army, and the Chaldean army. In other words the army of Babylon. In ch 29 of Ezekiel we read : "...yet had he no wages, nor HIS ARMY, for Tyrus. This proves without a doubt that this army was the army of Babylon...and not some multi-national force. (Again a multi-NATIONAL force is a coalition of armies of SOVERIEGN States who are not under the authority of one State army. Their participation is voluntary.) The army of Babylon= One nation. The critics have invented this error of a multi-national army to delude themselves and others about the Tyre Prophecy.

The many nations are "they" and Babylon is "He." Ezekiel knew that Nebby did not plunder Tyre, and at the moment that plundering is mention in the text "He" becomes "They" Is this coincedense? No. The reason for this change was done to show the seperation of "He" "They" and "I" which agrees with those prophets as well as Jesus....that Tyre was not to be destroyed by Nebby or any nation, but by......"I AM"

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Jack's quotes also indicated he is fixated only on the walls and streets of Tyre and not on the spiritual significance of zeke's prophecy. The prophecy was against the political/economic/religous system set up on tyre. Nebby succeded in exiling the princes of Tyre into babylon and then Nebby set up his own rulers in Tyre. Jack is also neglecting that the ultimate judgment on Tyre is reserved for the future. Note Luke: 10:13

Exactly! Tyre remains until the final Judgement. In the Prophets there is the mention of a great earthquake that destroys ALL the islands. Tyre was not to be destroyed by any nation only diminished which happened when it lost the mainland city. Jack always accuses me of evasion when I bring up this question, Why would Ezekiel have Tyre being destroyed by Nebby and in the same chapter says that it will be destroyed when it is buried under the sea? He has not answered that question. Only one has attempted so far (Sheshong) who says that it is a contradiction, or that it is P-O-E-T-I-C language and not literal. In otherwords he has no idea....and niether does Jack.

Amen, brother, preach it!

Anyway the other bogus assumption somone with MES has to make is that all prophecy is fulfilled at a SINGLE POINT in time, not accross multiple points in time. Every christian on the planet know that Yeshua DID NOT fulfilll all of the prophecies concerning himself 2000 years ago, I guess the early christians were just delusional and decided to overlook that little mistake, huh?:huh: Of course not, they realized that he was going to fulfill the remainder of the prophecies at a later time. Yeshua's prophecy that "no two stones" would remain of the Jewish temple was a powerful testimony that he is a true prophet.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 08:06 AM

Arnoldo and sugarhitman: maybe you should resolve between yourselves what YOU think Ezekiel meant?

Sugarhitman is obsessed with physical destruction, and insists that this will happen "in the future" (and can't understand that Ezekiel may have been speaking metaphorically). Indeed, his argument against Tyre being on land shows a similar problem: an obsession with the physical machinery of destruction listed by Ezekiel (assuming that Ezekiel was an infallible military expert, and that any item NOT mentioned by Ezekiel did not exist, and that Ezekiel wasn't just a madman ranting about random weapons he happened to be familiar with and tossing in a few earthquakes too in order to vent his anger).

Arnoldo (or, rather, one of the arnoldos: some sort of breakdown seems to be in progress) is now obsessed with reading this "metaphorically" in order to gloss over the historical errors in the actual account of what happened.

makerowner · 02-13-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Amen, brother, preach it!

Exactly. That's about all you guys are doing now, and this isn't the place for it.

Quote:

Anyway the other bogus assumption somone with MES has to make is that all prophecy is fulfilled at a SINGLE POINT in time, not accross multiple points in time.

OK, when a prophecy says that person X will do action Y, can it be fulfilled by person Z doing action W? Yes or no.

Quote:

Every christian on the planet know that Yeshua DID NOT fulfilll all of the prophecies concerning himself 2000 years ago, I guess the early christians were just delusional and decided to overlook that little mistake, huh?:huh:

Yes, actually.

Quote:

Of course not, they realized that he was going to fulfill the remainder of the prophecies at a later time.

You can claim that all you want, but there are specific parts of the Tyre prophecy that say that Nebuchadrezzar would do something, which he never did. There is no possible future fulfillment for this.

Quote:

Yeshua's prophecy that "no two stones" would remain of the Jewish temple was a powerful testimony that he is a true prophet.

Sure, if there was any evidence that it happened before the event. There isn't, so it's not.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Amen, brother, preach it!

Maybe this arnoldo should have a chat with the other arnoldo who thinks that sugarhitman is wrong? The one who thinks that Tyre has already been essentially "destroyed"?

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This proves without a doubt that this army was the army of Babylon...and not some multi-national force. (Again a multi-NATIONAL force is a coalition of armies of SOVERIEGN States who are not under the authority of one State army. Their participation is voluntary.) The army of Babylon= One nation. The critics have invented this error of a multi-national army to delude themselves and others about the Tyre Prophecy.

Still trying to use your profound ignorance of ancient warfare as an argument?

Did you even know that the Babylonian Empire began as ONE CITY? Babylon started as a city-state, which absorbed and/or conquered other city-states.

Nebby was an "overking", a "king of kings", a ruler over many nations. Even Ezekiel says so! And STILL you insist that Ezekiel was LYING about that.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I'm not having flashbacks, if you suffer from MES (minimalist eye syndrome), then the princes of Tyre and Jerusalem went into exile in babylon.

Nope, you falsely claimed that the POPULATION of Tyre went to Babylon. You know the difference between PRINCES and POPULATION, I hope?

As usual, it says nothing of the sort. It describes a siege: "...I strengthened the watch, on sea and land, his roads I took, his going out I stopped." Looks like he used both ships at sea and men on the mainland to stop the Tyrians coming ashore.

And that list is inaccurate, given the historical fact that Tyre won its independence from the Seleucids in 126 BC.

Classic fundie reversal-of-the-burden-of proof. I don't need such evidence. If YOU want to claim that Ezekiel was "prophesying", YOU need to provide the evidence for this. I was responding to YOUR claim, remember?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And yes Nebby did fulfill the prophecy, and yes Alex was part of the many nations which would rise up and attack tyre like the waves of the ocean. It is absolute RUBBISH to spin the argument that MANY NATIONS= NEBBY'S ARMIES.

Nebby failed to perform all the actions that he was SPECIFICALLY predicted to perform, and you have provided NO evidence for your notion that "many nations" was NOT a reference to Nebby's armies. You are still arguing that Ezekiel was a LIAR when he described Nebby as "king of kings" (a ruler over many nations), and ignoring the context in which "they" was used (plainly referring to the actions of Nebby's soldiers).

And, of course, ignoring the fact that Alexander DID NOT destroy Tyre.

Still fixated on the walls and streets of Tyre, huh?

sugarhitman · 02-13-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Amen, brother, preach it!

Maybe this arnoldo should have a chat with the other arnoldo who thinks that sugarhitman is wrong? The one who thinks that Tyre has already been essentially "destroyed"?

Yes the former Tyre has been detroyed. There is no mainland city, and the once great island fortress is no more even her walls are gone. She has been diminished to a mere fishing site. The only thing that really remains of Tyre is her name....and that only. :wave:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-13-2008, 07:58 AM	#183
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Ships are the most important item needed for a sea battle. Ezekiel does not even hint at such items when listing the war items of Nebby. 1. Horses 2. Chariots 3. Engines of war (Battering rams, catapults etc.) Siege mounds, forts, are things used on the land. There is no mention of ships. (the critics have even suggested that there was a causeway) Also listed is "much people" and "companies" there is no mention of many nations being with Neby. The destruction of Jerusalem was before the war against Tyre by Babylon. In Jeremiah the army of Babylon is not a multi-national force. It is referred to as Nebby's army, Babylon's army, and the Chaldean army. In other words the army of Babylon. In ch 29 of Ezekiel we read : "...yet had he no wages, nor HIS ARMY, for Tyrus. This proves without a doubt that this army was the army of Babylon...and not some multi-national force. (Again a multi-NATIONAL force is a coalition of armies of SOVERIEGN States who are not under the authority of one State army. Their participation is voluntary.) The army of Babylon= One nation. The critics have invented this error of a multi-national army to delude themselves and others about the Tyre Prophecy. The many nations are "they" and Babylon is "He." Ezekiel knew that Nebby did not plunder Tyre, and at the moment that plundering is mention in the text "He" becomes "They" Is this coincedense? No. The reason for this change was done to show the seperation of "He" "They" and "I" which agrees with those prophets as well as Jesus....that Tyre was not to be destroyed by Nebby or any nation, but by......"I AM"

02-13-2008, 08:06 AM	#185
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Arnoldo and sugarhitman: maybe you should resolve between yourselves what YOU think Ezekiel meant? Sugarhitman is obsessed with physical destruction, and insists that this will happen "in the future" (and can't understand that Ezekiel may have been speaking metaphorically). Indeed, his argument against Tyre being on land shows a similar problem: an obsession with the physical machinery of destruction listed by Ezekiel (assuming that Ezekiel was an infallible military expert, and that any item NOT mentioned by Ezekiel did not exist, and that Ezekiel wasn't just a madman ranting about random weapons he happened to be familiar with and tossing in a few earthquakes too in order to vent his anger). Arnoldo (or, rather, one of the arnoldos: some sort of breakdown seems to be in progress) is now obsessed with reading this "metaphorically" in order to gloss over the historical errors in the actual account of what happened.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.