Freethought & Rationalism Archive

shivalinga · 08-29-2003, 01:50 PM

try this on

http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html

http://www.viewzone.com/noah.story.html

http://www.viewzone.com/phoenician.html

http://www.viewzone.com/comanche.html

http://www.viewzone.com/baboquivari.html

http://www.viewzone.com/atlantis.html

GakuseiDon · 08-30-2003, 03:52 PM

I checked out the Noah, Abraham and Atlantis links.

(1) On the Noah viewzone article: I couldn't find anything to support the article's Noah similarities. The viewzone article starts by saying that the Matsya Purana has "To Satyavarman, that sovereign of the whole earth, were born three sons: the eldest Shem; then Sham; and thirdly, Jyapeti by name." The sons' names are very similar to the Bible, but I could find none of them listed on any Hindu site. Google just points me to the viewzone site and sites about Mdme Blavatsky (never a good sign).

But there is a flood myth in Hinduism. http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/hist_chron_2.html

Quote:

The earliest Aryan patriach mentioned in both Hindu scripture Rigveda and the Parsee scripture Avesta was Vivasvant (called Vivanhant in the Avasta). His son Manu, whose name is usually preceded or followed by his patronumic Vaivasvata, was the leader of the Aryans who crossed the river Sindhu and settled in its Valley. He is said to have been forced to leave his original homeland on account of a huge flood that devastated it. Vaivasata Manu along with three other patriachs, Bhrgu, Atri, and Kasyapa, laid the foundation of ARYAN Civilisation in India. Vaivasvata Manu was the progenitor of all the Ksatriya or ruling families and from the other three patriachs were descended the earliest Brahman or priestly families...

This region saw the rise of four kingdoms founded by the four sons of Manu named Sudyumma, Iksvaka, Pramsu, and Saryati, the most famous of whom were the first two. Sudyumma seems to have established a kingdom on the banks of the Sarasvati.

The actual flood myth is recounted here: http://www.dharmakshetra.com/avatars...%20Purans.html The viewzone article mentions Manu, but I couldn't find anything to support the similarities that the viewzone article claims exists. My personal view: the article is rubbish.

(2) On Abraham: the viewzone article says "There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences." The only listed coincidence seems to be that Saraisvati was Brahma's sister and wife.

I found that Brahma did indeed have a consort called "Saraswati", who was an aspect of Brahma, so in some ways "his sister" or even daughter. I couldn't find any other similarities to Abraham and Sarai, nor does the viewzone article say what they are anyway, so it is hard to check for them in the first place. My personal view: interesting, but mere coincidences (like "Christ" and "Krishna").

(Ed. I found a number of myths regarding Brahma and the origin of Saraswati, though they seem to be variations of the story in the link I give above)

(3) On Atlantis: I love that sort of stuff!

But I didn't really look into trying to prove or disprove it.

So, over to shivalinga: do you anything more regarding the Noah and Abraham similarities? Where in the Matsya Purana does it talk about "Noah's" 3 sons, the uncovering of nakedness, etc? Can you quote from it, or at least provide a more precise citation? Also, what are the similarities between Abraham and Sarai, and Brahma (lord of the universe) and Saraswati (4 armed goddess who is actually an aspect of Brahma Himself?)

shivalinga · 08-31-2003, 01:51 PM

do a goolge search
i found a lot of links.

premjan · 09-01-2003, 01:51 AM

pro-indic scholars are not the only ones who try to construct all ancient place names out of their preferred languages. I have seen a scholar doing the same thing with the basque language (euskadi). this is just speculation (Panama == Pani-Maha)?? This is just free association. One could do this with any place name. To be scientific, it has to be falsifiable, other you are not contributing any information by putting out this kind of article. For example, why Pani-Maha and why not Pani-ma (mother water??)

the only possible purpose of such articles is to fill web server space. It is not even useful as propaganda. It falls in the category of devotional scholarship (modern bhakti scholarship). Sooner or later, someone is going to use some intellectual insult against someone who believes such trash.

GakuseiDon · 09-01-2003, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shivalinga
do a goolge search
i found a lot of links.

I did, and found a lot of links on Manu, too, but nothing in any Hindu site that said he had three sons named Shem, Sham and Jyapeti. Can you point me to any Hindu site that says this? I went through some sites that discussed the Puranas as well, but nothing.

Again, could I ask you to give chapter and verse for where this sentence is listed in the Matsya Purana: "To Satyavarman, that sovereign of the whole earth, were born three sons: the eldest Shem; then Sham; and thirdly, Jyapeti by name". I certainly couldn't find it. It is supposed to be a direct quote from the Matsya Purana, isn't it?

For your interest, here is the Hindu Flood Myth (from the link in the earlier post):

Quote:

Vishnu and Manu

There used to be a king named Manu. He was the son of the sun-god.

In fact, in every era, there are fourteen manus. The Manu mentioned here is the seventh in the present era and his name was Vaivasvata Manu. He was the son of the sun-god Vivasvana.)

When it was time for Manu to retire to the forest, he handed over the kingdom to his son. (The son�s name is Ikshvaku.) Manu then went to the foothills of Mount Malaya and started to perform tapasya (meditation \ austerity). Thousands and thousands of years passed. After some time Brahma appeared to him

I am pleased with your prayers, said Brahma; "what ever you like you can have just ask".

I have only one boon to ask for, replied Manu. Sooner or later there will be a destruction (pralaya) and the world will no longer exist. Please grant me the boon that it will be I who will save the world. Grant me this service.

Brahma readily granted this boon.

Days passed. On one particular occasion, Manu was performing ablutions in a pond near his hermitage. He immersed his hands in the water so that he might offer some water to his ancestors. When he raised his cupped hands, he found that there was a minnow (shafari) swimming around in the water. Manu had no desire to kill the minnow. He placed it carefully in his water-pot (kamandalu).

But the minnow started to grow and within a day, it was sixteen fingers in length. Save me, king. said the fish. This water-pot is too small for me.

Manu then placed the fish in a jar. But the fish continued to grow and, within a day, it was three hands in length. Save me, king. said the fish. This jar is too small for me.

Manu put the fish in a well, but the well soon became too small for the fish. Manu transferred the fish to a pond, but the pond was also too small for the fish. Manu now removed the fish to the holy river Ganga, but even this was too small for the fish. Finally, Manu transferred the fish to the ocean. There the fish grew so much that it soon occupied the entire ocean.

Who are you? asked Manu. I have never seen or heard of such wonders. Are you a demon that is deluding me with its illusions? No, I do not think that you are a demon. Perhaps you are great Vishnu himself. Please tell me the truth and satisfy my curiosity.

Vishnu then revealed that it was indeed he who had adopted the form of a fish. He told Manu that the earth would soon be flooded with water. Vishnu had a boat built by the gods. When the earth was flooded, Manu was to place all living beings in the boat and thus save them. Vishnu would himself arrive in his form of the fish and Manu was to tie the boat to the fish�s horn. Thus the living beings would be saved. And when the waters of the flood receded, Manu could populate the world and rule over it.

Vishnu disappeared, and for a hundred years there was a terrible drought on earth. The drough led to famine and people died of starvation. Meanwhile, the sun blazed in fury and burnt up the entire world. When everything had burnt to ashes, dark clouds loomed in the sky. These are the clouds that appear at the time of destruction and there are seven classes of such clouds, known as samvarta, bhimananda, drona, chanda, valahaka, vidyutapataka and kona. From the clouds, rain began to pour and soon, water engulfed the entire earth. The land mass was flooded. As instructed by Vishnu, Manu gathered together living beings inside the boat. And when the fish appeared, he tied the boat to the fish�s horn.

While the boat was being dragged around by the fish, Manu asked Vishnu several questions. The answeres that Vishnu provided form the text of the Matsya Purana. (my emphasis)

premjan · 09-01-2003, 04:18 AM

I suppose it is quite possible that all the ancient Asian cultures shared each others' mythology. That's probably the purpose of mythology in the first place.

08-29-2003, 01:50 PM	#1
shivalinga Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: california Posts: 517	Indian origins try this on http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html http://www.viewzone.com/noah.story.html http://www.viewzone.com/phoenician.html http://www.viewzone.com/comanche.html http://www.viewzone.com/baboquivari.html http://www.viewzone.com/atlantis.html

08-31-2003, 01:51 PM	#3
shivalinga Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: california Posts: 517	search google do a goolge search i found a lot of links.

09-01-2003, 01:51 AM	#4
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	sanskrit and basque pro-indic scholars are not the only ones who try to construct all ancient place names out of their preferred languages. I have seen a scholar doing the same thing with the basque language (euskadi). this is just speculation (Panama == Pani-Maha)?? This is just free association. One could do this with any place name. To be scientific, it has to be falsifiable, other you are not contributing any information by putting out this kind of article. For example, why Pani-Maha and why not Pani-ma (mother water??) the only possible purpose of such articles is to fill web server space. It is not even useful as propaganda. It falls in the category of devotional scholarship (modern bhakti scholarship). Sooner or later, someone is going to use some intellectual insult against someone who believes such trash.

09-01-2003, 04:18 AM	#6
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	common mythology I suppose it is quite possible that all the ancient Asian cultures shared each others' mythology. That's probably the purpose of mythology in the first place.

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