Ted Hoffman

CX, Fair enough. Your patience and indulgence please.

Is Cumont wrong on the specific points I cited?
What does it mean when you state that Cumont's book is "no longer valid"? What specific errors does Cumont make?
How is Sol Inviciti different from Mithraism?
Is Sol Inviciti independent from Mithraism?

Amaleq13

How many of these alleged messianic prophecies were recognized as such prior to Christianity?

seeker

Shouldn't his debate really include some of the other Roman Mystery cults as well? I've always thought that many of them, including Divus Iulius, Dionysius, etc. several of which clearly predated Christianity all had very similar elements. Doesn't this indicate that Roman mystery religions in general (and I'm including christianity in this) simply adopted similar rituals in a fight for followers that Christianity just happened to win?

Gabe the Angel

Dear Seeker

I think the debate should follow the lines of was there a similarity between Mithra and Jesus, by introducing additional cults etc. we will have an open ended debate. The problem for debates in general is that they deviate into other areas. I would hope that this one can at least conclude if the Mithra evidence contains similarities to the Jesus story, then both are, just that they are stories. By introducing the lines of Mithraism being the forerunner of christianity, it would also follow many deviations. I know this is old ground form many of you, but for my part, be it small, I have a problem in the Mithra similarity, to me its a simple conclusion, if Mithra contained a similar story line to Jesus, then Jesus is a "bolt on" to the original story line. To me it speaks volumes and that that's all it is, a story.

French Prometheus

Apparently many Jews, too, haven't noticed that their Scriptures has anything to do with Jesus (except maybe for Deut 18:20-22). Anyway, what's the connection between the OT Messiah and Mithraism?

seeker

I mostly agree with you but I do think that when you look at the Mithra - Christ stories in the context of the whole continuum of the Mystery Religions you see a pattern of the same stories repeated over an over again. Basically they were all just various dieties plugged into a template.

Gabe the Angel

Dear Seeker

So, are you saying that Jesus was the product of a template, many think he was original, if not, why no real publicity on the subject?

GakuseiDon

He could be a product of a template, and still be original, i.e. "processed".

Even if there are no similarities between Mithraism and Christianity, it still doesn't mean there wasn't copying. It just needs to be proved.

Ted Hoffman

First of all, Mitra seems to have been a god among other gods (Indra, Mitra, Varuna and the twin horsemen, the Ashvins or Nasatya) as early as 1400BCE in a treatuy between Huttites and Hurians.

Then silence.

Next we hear about Mitra is c.350 BCE among other gods again. This time from Darius the Great's son; Susa of Artaxerxes II Mnemon (404–358 BC) who lumps Mitra with Ahuramazda, Anahita.

Then Alexander the great takes over and the Persian empire is gone. The Hellenistic influence spreads all over the Persian empire and Greek and Roman Mythology have time to syncretize with whatever Persians had.

This time (we are now in late first century), Roman Mithraism emerges anew. Mithra has a virgin mother and tauroctony and taurobolium are introduced. Plutarch mentions that in 67CE, there were a band of pirates practicing the secret rites on Mithras. Now, note that this Roman Mithras, other than the name was totally different from the Iranian Mitras. Cumont presumed it was a continuity and has been proved wrong.

In 270 AD, Aurelian comes up with 'Sol Invictus' sect - which seems to have sidelined Mithras among its pantheon of Sun Gods (I need to search more on this).

In 325 AD, Constantine becomes a Christian and introduces Sunday, Christmas day (Dec 25th) Christ's mass and so on and so forth.

So, did Christianity Borrow from Mithraism?

Borrowed what? the idea of the star chasing magi? the virgin birth concept?

Matthew borrowed from Isaiah. Some aspects of Jesus' birth are copied from the birth of Moses - like Herod's baby-killing drama etc etc.

One must be careful because the NT was written via midrash. The question must be specific and not confuse Iranian Mitra and Roman Mitra.

Besides, there were plenty of other cults that had dying and rising saviour gods with virgin births. Christianity could have borrowed from any of them. In fact, Roman Mithraism seems to pose an unlikely candidate.

seeker

I'm saying that there are so many similarities amongst the various dieties of the various mystery religions that one could look at it that way. As GakuseiDon suggests above it is obvious that some copying occured. All one has to look at to see that is Christs birthdate which is somehow celebrated on the winter solstice when the bible says it was otherwise.

In fact the entire story of Christ as it's related in the gospels could easily be cobbled together from the mystery religions and a passing knowledge of Judaism.