Vincent Guilbaud

In the Common Sayings Tradition (37 common sayings between Thomas and Q),
there are 4 sayings that directly refer to its author.

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Hating One's Family

Whoever does not hate his father and his mother
cannot become a disciple to Me.
And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters...
Thomas 55:1-2a

Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do
cannot become a disciple to Me.
And whoever does [not] love his father and his mother as I do
cannot become a [disciple] to Me.
Thomas 101

If any one comes to me
and does not hate his own father and mother
... and brothers and sisters,
...he cannot be my disciple.
Q1 Luke 14:26 = Matt 10:37

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Carrying One's Cross

And whoever does not ... take up his cross in My way
will not be worthy of Me.
Thomas 55:2b

Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me,
cannot be my disciple.
Q1 Luke 14:27 = Matt 10:38 (see Mark 8:34 = Matt 16:24 = Luke 9:23)

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Peace or Sword

Men think, perhaps, it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world.
... it is dissension ...
For there will be five in a house:
three will be against two, and two against three,
the father against the son, and the son against the father.
Thomas 16

Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth?
... but rather division;
for henceforth in one house there will be five divided,
three against two and two against three;
they will be divided, father against son and son against father
Q2 Luke 12:51-53 = Matt 10:34-36

**************************
Father and Son

I was given some of the things of my Father.
Thomas 61:3

All things have been delivered to me by my Father;
Q2 Luke 10:22 = Matt 11:27

**************************

According to scholarship and the myth theory
(which I find for now, the best explication for the birth of Christianity),
these 4 sayings are supposed to be among the oldest ones (previous to Mark and Q3).
For the myth theory, they were written during a phase when the Kingdom of God movement
was diffuse without any historical founder or Jesus in the background.

But how do they fit in the myth theory?
Shall we admit that there must have been some leaders of the Kingdom who
- were claiming to possess God's knowledge
- asking others to leave everything to follow them
- were anticipating fight with the world
???

I don't remember that Doherty is talking about them.

Thanks for any idea on this.
Maybe, I just see something irrelevant.

Toto

Doherty thinks that the Q sayings go back to some sort of Galilean preacher, but that this person had no relationship to Paul's purely spiritual savior. It was only later that the Savior and the words of the Galilean preacher were fused into Jesus Christ.

Other mythicists do not accept Q as an early document, and see no problem with some Christian (say, Matthew) putting those words in the mouth of a historicized spiritual savior.

Vincent Guilbaud

Thanks for your answers.

Well, in the case of Doherty's theory (the one I am interested in) he does.
(This document, along with Thomas and the Didache could be in fact
among the biggest hits against the traditional theory)

Sure, they have to come from somewhere!
We can only conclude that such sayings were spoken by the prophets of the Q community itself,
and only later became attributed to an artificial founder figure.
The Jesus Puzzle p.166

Still, looking for a name to which attribute the sayings,
or how they were presented to the public he also states:
Perhaps when the initial collection of Cynic-like sayings was adopted by a new Jewish
movement preaching the kingdom, they were presented as the voice of Wisdom.
This was the common way of thinking within the genre of Jewish wisdom collections of the time, a genre with
which the earliest layer of Q shares many characteristics.
If Wisdom's words lay at the genesis of the community,
why not Wisdom herself as the perceived 'fonder'?
...
If Wisdom stood as the figurehead of the preaching community for its first few decades,...
The Jesus Puzzle p.170

Except these 4 sayings, all the others are impersonal
and can be assigned indeed to anyone, including Wisdom:
Seek and you will find.

the Kingdom is inside of you

Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted.

whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven,
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven

For nothing hidden will not become manifest,
and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

if they receive you, eat what they will set before you,
and heal the sick among them.

If a blind man leads a blind man,
they will both fall into a pit.
...

But, it looks for me that not only it is difficult to assign the 4 personal sayings to Wisdom
but they may betray a real figure above all others in the Kingdom of God Galilean movement.

Any thought?

andrewcriddle

FWIW most ancient collections of wisdom sayings are clearly assigned to a supposed human author. (Not necessarily the true author). I find the idea that Q originally circulated without a supposed human author primafacie unlikely.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

But if there was a real figure behind the Q sayings, does this figure have to be Jesus Christ? Or do you want to define that figure as the historical core of Jesus?

Suppose this founder was named Levi and hung out in the taverns and talked a lot, but died peacefully in his sleep, leaving a wife and 10 children. Would you still call him the historical Jesus?

andrewcriddle

That is a good point but there may be an issue of parsimony.
The idea that the original author of the Q material was within fifty years fogotten. and replaced by a supposed contemporay, who in fact never existed, seems unnecessarily complicated.

Andrew Criddle

vid

Why should Q material (in discussed hypothesis) come from time about 1AD? I think it can easily be much older. It can also be "list of smart sayings" compiled from various sources (like few close parallels in DSS suggest), and only later ascribed to Jesus.

andrewcriddle

Are you suggesting that the early Q material was originally circulated as an anonymous collection of wisdom sayings ? If so I've explained above why I think this unlikely. (Wisdom collections mostly aren't anonymous.)

Or are you suggesting that the early Q material was originally circulated as a collection attributed to some revered ancient figure ? In that case, the mythicist has IMO the problem of how this material became attributed to a supposedly recent but actually non-historical figure.

Andrew Criddle

Vincent Guilbaud

A.Criddle said
Does anyone know of a non human author for a collection of sayings?
Or one without being assigned to anyone in particular ?

Also, the fact that we have a collection of sayings nowadays with a name
doesn't mean that it had a name at its beginning.
If we accept that the name can change, we might also accept that it could just be added.

Not me.

Just found this:
beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
"To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the sons of men.
Hear, for I will speak noble things, and from my lips will come what is right;
for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination [i]to my lips[/b].
All the words of my mouth are righteous;...
Take my instruction instead of silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold;...
I, wisdom, dwell in prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion...
Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
I have counsel and sound wisdom, I have insight, I have strength...
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me...
I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice,
endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,...
Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;...
...then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.

And now, my sons, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.
Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.
Happy is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.
For he who finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD;
but he who misses me injures himself; all who hate me love death.

Book of Proverbs 8:1-36 (Old Testament)

Finally, seeing the theme of the Jewish Personified Wisdom in the Bible,
Doherty doesn't seem to stretch common thinking in the Ancient time at all.

So it looks for me now that these 4 'personal' Sayings I have found
could, indeed, have been said as coming from 'Wisdom'.

mountainman

Dear Toto,

If he rose on the third day from his slumbers and filled the christmas stocking before appearing to the Galilaeans, who preserved his sayings due to the novelty of the situation, certainly others would have written about the trend in literature about Levi, and we would have external corroboration from inscriptions and art and statues, murals, frescoes, kitchenware, etc, all depicting the wonderful ascension of Levi from the matrimonial bed. I can see it something like "The Gospel of the householder Levi". And yes, if we had independent archaeological corroboration this Levi would most certainly be granted a favorable index of historicity, and he would be considered to have some degree of authentical historical significance, commensurate with all the available citations. And we would not be here discussing this, because Levi's historicity might have been quite strong.


I seem to recall that Earl Doherty agrees in principle that the sayings gospel of Thomas may not have been originally prefaced, in each of its lines, with the attribution "Jesus said". Others ascribe to this view. Robin Lane-Fox? I could be wrong about this though, so dont quote me on this one.



Best wishes,


Pete