Mr. Logic

O.K. exactly what part of your statements are evidence? These are declarations.
I get this kind of answers from Religionists all the time. They declare that the Bible is the Word of God, and that settles it for them, and you DECLARE that it's a nonsense, and the fact is by doing so you are showing that you have faith.
You faith is in what you want to believe, or else you would have given evidence rather than a declaration!
Your views are written with an extreme bias! How many times did you post about how badly women are treaded? My life was put on hold years back while the U.S. government sent me overseas, and my Wife sat home and baked cookies. A few years after that, Her Control Freak Mother turned her against me, and even taught by Child to call me by my first name. The U.S. courts system put all of the rights in her corner and all of the responsibility in mine.
Our court system still expects a man to pay support to Women that birthed their child even if that women teaches those children to hate their Father.
You had a chance to say "Your right, it isn't equal to put the responsibility on Men, while the woman makes all the choices"! Why didn't you?
You didn't respond to that at all. Why? I know why! Keeping the faith! That's why!
You are way to bias to make a judgement on anything. I bet you get all goose bumped when Oprah who lives in an $80 mil. mansion comes on telling you how bad women have it!
Judge Judy has stated that a 27 year old man is mentally equivalent to a 17 year old Girl. Why did this not hit the Newspapers, and made a big deal?

You are obviously a Women defending your own kind. Jesus who you reject taught against defending our own kind. This is Animalistic thinking! "Carnal minded"!

So called Minorities don't seem to care about anyone but their own Egos!
The sad fact is that "What goes around comes around"!
BTW, in the garden of Eden, the amazing pattern there has been repeated though out history! They ended up turning their backs on the one that gave them all they would ever need, to trust someone that gave them nothing!

They had perfection until they listened to the serpent. The Serpent, (watch for it) TOLD THEM WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR!!!! Hello! Know anyone like that Lady? Just remember it's all the other guys fault! I am sure that you already know that! When is the last time that you saw a protest for responsibilities?
You are helping me prove my points! Thanks!

Joan of Bark

Okay, Mr. Logic, you are now clearly off the deep end. So where shall I start?

The stories of Genesis are historical rubblish, as you can learn by reading any history, astronomy, or archeology text. For the stories leading through Joshua, try The Bible Unearthed, by Finkelstein and Silberman.

Your personal anecdote is virtually meaningless in this discussion. We are debating generalities here, not every single male-female conflict in history. There are billions of those, so obviously there is sometimes injustice on both sides.

As for Oprah, I have railed against her hypocrisy on another thread. I agree, she's not worth listening to.

Once again I ask, if the Garden of Eden was perfect, what was the serpent doing there? Was he, she or it also perfect?

Quote: "You are obviously a Women defending your own kind"

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm actually a man ... (see The Lounge, Photo Gallery, post #6903 for a recent picture).

Mr. Logic

Hi Joan: Glad that I was wrong about you, but come on, you made several comments about how badly women were treated. You sounded a bit like Sharpton saying how bad Blacks have it while he tries to railroad White Guys for a rape that they didn't do to a Black Woman.
We live in a very bias World and Scripture points this out.
The Serpent question is a far enough one, but there is a simple answer.
If you are in perfect health and then they find a lump of some kind and get it tested.
If it turns out to benign are you not still in perfect health?
The Serpent was there but benign. Perfection would have gone on as such but Ego was the problem. You can be like God! History has repeated itself over and over again. Many trust those who gave them nothing and thumb their nose at those who gave them much.
Now remember I am not out to defend "The Bible" but the logic of the books that I am sure were inspired by those who were touched and directed by God.
One of the Law Professors that established the Yale Law School/department, was a man named Simon Greenleaf. He was Jewish and was going to publish a book proving that the resurrection of Jesus could not have happened.

During his research, he was amazed at how logical the evidence was against his bias, and ended up becoming a Believer.
You, like S.G. are a very intelligent Person but simply don't know much about the scriptures. You can't know much about them if you heard it from "Religionists"!
Billy Graham and the Pope are two guys that don't have a clue about scripture.
Not kidding! They wouldn't be of a division if they knew anything at all about scripture. They would have read 1 Cor. 1:10. and believed it.

So you don't like Oprah either! Great! You have to admit, she sure knows how to make the cash! She reminds of of Medonna, who made a fortune off of a target audience of young girls but won't let her daughter listen to someone like her. She won't even let her listen to TV. Humm! Scripture is sure right about People, that's a given!
Thanks for your time!

Mr. Logic

Hello! Anyone there? I hope that I didn't scare everyone away!
People get scared when they come face to face with the reality and logic of God. The word for "Word of God" in greek is Logos, which means logic!
God's ways (logic) are higher than our ways!
Religionists don't understand God's ways, and cling to Man's tradtions.
That is why they can't win a debate of scripture. They have that Tribal Mentality, and when I point this out to Non Believers, they get that deer in the headlight look! It's understandable, but I am not trying to freak People out, just point out that coming against Fundamentalists and Catholics isn't proving anything against scripture. It's like a dog chasing him tail.
You can know that God is about love, and understands that we have all been programmed like robots in what we believe. "Forgive them for they know not what they do"!

Joan of Bark

Okay, here's my final comment on this thread:

Everyone of a theist bent claims to "know" the scripture. The fact that so many disagree on what it says simply proves that God had nothing to do with producing it -- else he would have made it so clear that there could be no possible misunderstandings (after all, he is omniscient, so he should have forseen all these problems). The disagreements arise because scripture is CONTRADICTORY. Everyone gets out of it what they want to get out of it. No one gets their views FROM the Bible; they use the Bible to reinforce their already existing prejudices. And if the Bible wasn't contradictory, this would be impossible.

End of sermon.

Mr. Logic

Wow, how sad! The fact that People disagree so much about "The Bible" as you and others call it (The Scritpures don't use that term and that is a fact, but does that fact disprove that the scritpures come from God?).

Sad that someone who knows so little about a subject looks at what a bunch of People say to prove that what is written is false! The Scriptures if you ever read them say "Let there be no divisons among you" 1 Cor. 1:10. Is that not a logic statement? How can People stay as a People when they are all divided up! You ignore what scripture says and see divisions among confesing Believers and dis the scritpures for it! Again, how sad!
The fact that People are all over the map is actually a witness to the truth about scripture. The Leaders in Jesus' day couldn't wait to get rid of him. Those who claim to represent God rarely do. That is scriptural, yet you don't believe them, because of People's actions? Humm!
Ghandi once stated that he would have became a Christian had it not been for Christians, as I already stated somewhere. Would you stop breathing air because a lot of bad People breath?

As pointed out before, Historians called Native Americans, Indians even though they knew that this wasn't a route to India. Do all these wrong Historians disprove History? Or does it prove scripture right that says, "all have gone their own way"? Christians are wrong because they are People not because they believe in scripture. They don't believe what the scriptures say or they would want harmony rather than division and they would be searching for the truth rather than insisting how right they and their group are (Tribal mentality)
You are prob. more honest than most Christians. You reject God because you want control of your life, even though we control very little.
Christians won't let God control thier lives either, they just lie to themselves, and act as if they have submitted to God. The fact that almost none will admit that the word "Bible" isn't in the Scritpural Writings is one proof, and the fact that it can also be proven that Jesus never commanded water baptism or any other ritual for the church, is another!
Thanks for your time

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

Out of curiosity, which version of the Bible Scripture do you use Mr. Logic?

Mr. Logic

Love it that you did a strike though "Bible"! Gee someone is actually listening! amazing! Of course I usually talk to Fundamentalists, and it goes over their head. It has to be "bible" to them, just like they have to have a command to water baptize from Christ, even though there is no command and I have proven this to a Greek Scholar. Not my view, just the evidence. Although some of the People look like they were baptized in lemon juice! <s>

I am in no way a KJV Only, Guy, but the KJV is the only one that I have found so far that "Word search" can be done accurately on. Also the KJV isn't copy written like most, since it wasn't written for cash.

Example: Three woes are mentioned in the book of Revelation. I could never figure out what the 3rd woe was, when I was reading the NIV version, but when I did a word search in the KJV, I noticed that the word WOE is found again, after the word "woe" was mentioned for the first two times. In the NIV I couldn't find it because they changed the word Woe to the Word "Alas". I would never have known why I couldn't find the word woe if it wasn't for searching the KJV on this.

Another example: Many Religious Christians don't understand that John baptized Jews, not Christians. I often say that "I can give you the exact number of Christians, John the Baptist baptized", and all serious Students should already know this but rarely do! Very rarely! Zero is the number! John was dead before the birth of the Church at Pentecost.
Since they don't know this fact it leads to more errors, and so here is the example form this error. When I use to read the NIV quite a bit, I noticed that Acts 18 stated that the man, Apollos "--- taught about "Jesus" accurately" v. 25!

That was like a headlight to a deer to me, since I knew better than that. This Man didn't know Jesus from the Man in the Moon. He only knew John's baptism, since later in the same chapter, Priscilla and Aquila (A couple that taught that Jesus Christ was the savior) explained to him the way of God more adequately! V.26

What was a more adequate way than knowing Jesus is the Savior for a Believer?
So I got out a KJV, and sure enough the orig. text shows that the word Jesus isn't in the text at all. Apollos knew the ways of the LORD. As a Jew waiting for the Messiah, he knew that Lord God, but didn't know Lord Jesus yet, and that is what the Couple taught him.
A Woman had a book out a few years ago called New Age Bible Versions, by Gail Riplinger! The Greek Scholar that I eventually made see that Jesus never commanded water baptism (surely not one with a pagan chant and dip), for the church age, had a prob. with this Lady, and KJV only is overboard, yes, but she had some very important things to say. I never knew until her book that there are verses that are simply missing in the NIV and other newer versions.
A text might go from v.6 to v.8 with no v.7 in sight, etc.
OTOH the KJV states that believers were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, but the text should read that they were baptized "INTO" the name of Jesus Christ. IOW it is the NAME itself that they had been immersed INTO, not water with the name chanted over. My Greek Scholar Friend agreed that "INTO" is the correct Greek on this, an that was when he still was in disagreement with me overall. He was an honest man that had to admit at last, that he had been taught error on this.

So I use KJV mostly, but other versions can sometimes shed more light on a subject, "sometimes"!
Sorry if this seems detailed but I have studied these things for years objectively always looking for harmony and flow, and this is but a bit of what I kow about the problems with interp. and translation.