stephan huller

Yet another silver bullet to shoot down the absurd fourth century conspiracy theory. Here is the article

Here is the pertinent information: http://www.haaretz.com/news/a-latter...magog-1.174427

Transient

Blimey mate you are getting desperate aren't you? Anyone would think your life depended on downing someone else's theory.
Might be better to wait a bit before using the silver bullet label otherwise we will not take much notice of your future silver bullets.

stephan huller

Transi

Agon is perhaps the central motif in the Bible. You probably didn't come from a Jewish home or haven't partaken in many Jewish family meals but arguing is almost a sign of affection. You can do no greater service to someone than to correct them from a wrong path.

Maybe when I see another mashugana I feel he is family and extend him the dysfunctional greeting.

stephan huller

Now believe it or not there was another purpose to me citing this discovery. My wife actually came in the room and reminded me it was my turn to put the kids to bed. Everyone keeps saying that the mosaic says 'the God Jesus Christ.' I am not so sure. I got interested in the mosaic when I saw the divine nature emphasized. If you look at the actual description you will see that it might well have been 'the God Jesus Chrestos' the use of nomina sacra is ambiguous:



I think it was Cyril of Jerusalem who warned his co-religionists that Marcionite synagogues were indistinguishable from Catholic churches. The Marcionites were especially numerous in Syria at that thim. I am going to look at the Deir Ali inscription (again established before Nicaea) and see if there are any similarities.

I wonder if this was a Marcionite synagogue. Is it really a 'church'? The Marcionite inscription reads "The meeting-house of the Marcionists, in the village of Lebaba, of the Lord and Saviour Jesus the Good -Erected by the forethought of Paul a presbyter, in the year 630 Seleucid era."

stephan huller

A connection maybe found however with Polycarp Letter to the Philippians So also in Lightfoot's reconstruction of the text of a passage in the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians : " The eternal High Priest Himself, the God, Jesus Christ" or Ignatius to the Trallians ""nor separated from the God Jesus Christ, and from the bishop"

mountainman

The idea is new and refutable. It's survival in this instance depends upon the fact that the recent archeological find in Megiddo, Israel, appears to incorporate christian inscriptions and floor mosaics (fish).

However there appears to be a range of opinion on the dating of the christian components, some advocating a date in the third century, while others are more cautious, and admit a fourth century date. One of the better sources I have found on the Megiddo archaeological discovery is this one

Also see 3.1 The dating, according to mr. Tepper:

Other than Tepper ...

mountainman

Well spotted stephan! This source on Megiddo mentions the nomina sacra, and mentions at Note 14:

I dont think the site is that old however.


The above referenced source has alot more data on the archaeological find.

stephan huller

Yes but you are again manipulating the evidence. This is not a matter of one archaeologist versus another archaeologists opinion. The IAA has come to this conclusion about dating as a collective body. I know it is always attractive to link 'Jews' to 'conspiracies' but let's remember that it was the IAA which blew the whistle on the James Ossuary and ignored the Jesus Family Tomb business. The IAA is a responsible body, much better than their Egyptian or Jordanian counterparts.

Also no one has referenced the Jesus inscription which to me is significant because it doesn't sound at all like the Nicene Creed. A similar claim was made of a discovered church in Jordan which was purported to be very old, but the inscription referenced the Trininity. 'The God Jesus Christ' sounds very un-Nicene to me. If you go through the IAA report they cite a number of reasons for their dating:



Indeed their identification of this as a 'prayer hall' makes the Marcionite connection even stronger. The Marcionites gathered in 'synagogues' rather than churches. Unfortunately I doubt anyone in Israel has any familiarity with Marcionitism.

stephan huller

And I just noticed this:

MNHMONEUSATE PRIMILLHS KAI KURI AKHS KAI DWROQEAS ETI DE KAI CRHSTH[S]MNÊMONEUSATE / PRIMILLÊS KAI KYRI- / AKÊS KAI DÔROTHEAS / ETI DE KAI KHRÊSTÊS.

Remember / Primillê and Kuri- / -akê ("The Lord's") and Dôrothea ("God's gift") / and also Khrêstê ("The kind one"). (See also Henrickson in FR and 2.4.1.)

The author's haven't picked up the Marcionite connection that I suspected initially. I am increasingly confident we have a Marcionite prayer house.

Also the IAA's arguments for dating from one of the sites:

stephan huller

Inscribed “To God Jesus Christ”
Early Christian Prayer Hall Found in Megiddo Prison
By Vassilios Tzaferis
Biblical Archaeology Review 2008



....What Tepper and the prisoners exposed is probably the earliest church1 ever discovered in the Holy Land (the excavators date it to the first half of the third century, around 230 A.D.) and one of the very few churches from this early period anywhere in the world—from a time before Christianity became the religion of the Roman empire in the early fourth century during the reign of Constantine the Great.

Although Tepper had no idea of the church he would discover, he was hardly surprised that there were ancient remains here. Earlier archaeological surveys in the area (the most recent of which Tepper himself led) identified the site of an ancient Jewish village (Kfar Othnay), as well as the headquarters of two Roman legions and later the Byzantine city of Maximianopolis beside the Jewish village.

Kfar Othnay is mentioned in Jewish sources (Mishnah Gittin 7:7) and in Ptolemy’s writings, and is located on the famous Peutinger map (originally drawn in the second century A.D.), where it is called by its Latin name, Caporcotani. The excavation uncovered a number of miqva’ot (Jewish ritual baths) in Kfar Othnay, but they may have been used by the Samaritans rather than the Jews, because the sources also indicate that Othnay was home to Samaritans as well—a very multicultural place, as we shall see.

During the second and third centuries, the Romans erected a military camp near the Jewish village where at least two of their legions, the Second Traiana and the Sixth Ferrata, were stationed. The entire region then became known as Legio. The modern Arabic name of the site, El Lajjun, preserves a memory of the Roman military camp Legio. Dozens of roof tiles bear stamps of the Second Legion Traiana and the Sixth Legion Ferrata. A spectacular bronze statuette of the Roman house-god Lar was also recovered in the excavation.

At the end of the Roman period and during the Byzantine period, the Jewish village and Roman Legio became part of a city, or polis, named Maximianopolis in honor of the western emperor Maximian (286—305). A bishop from Maximianopolis attended the influential Council of Nicaea in 325, indicating that Maximianopolis remained an important Christian community even after the Roman legions left the site. Following the Arab conquest in the seventh century, Maximianopolis became the fortified capital of the district of Palaestina Secunda.

Perhaps the most interesting building in the area where the bronze statuette of the Roman god Lar was uncovered (Area Q) was a large structure at least 65 by nearly 100 feet (20 x 30 meters) at the edge of the Jewish village. This rectangular structure featured an open central courtyard surrounded on all sides by small rooms and halls.2 The building served several functions. Some of the rooms appear to have been dwellings for legionnaires and their families. (Overall the building was not unlike the other buildings in this residential quarter.) In the northern wing the archaeologists found juglets, cooking pots and basalt querns for grinding food. Other sections of the building served an administrative or military function. A Roman spearhead and knife were found in and around the building. Evidence of its function as a Roman military administrative center also includes two bread stamps. Bread was a staple of the Roman army diet, and it was customary for the military bakers to stamp their breads, either with the name of the Roman commander or the name of the baker.a Bread for the nearby Roman camp was apparently baked in the building. The names on the stamps, Lic[i](nius) Priscus and Jul(ius) Maxim(us), clearly demonstrate that the bakers were members of the Roman legion.

The southwest corner of this building served a religious function for the Christians who served in the army, as well as for the local Christian community. In the extreme southwest corner of the building is what the excavators call a Christian prayer hall measuring about 16 by 32 feet (5 x 10 meters).

Monolithic pilasters protruding from the walls were probably the bases for an arch rising above. Just under the center of the supposed arch were two rectangular stones pressed into the pavement of the hall. These were almost surely supports for a kind of table for the Eucharist (trapeza)—the symbolic imbibing of the blood and body of Christ in the wine and bread. Several liturgical tables from North Africa may give us an idea of what the altar/table at the Megiddo prayer hall looked like.

The most spectacular find in the excavation, however, was a beautifully preserved mosaic floor that clearly indicates the function of the room. On each of the four sides of the remains of the Eucharist table (the base of which the excavators call the podium) are individual mosaic panels outlined by straight rows of black tesserae. On the two side panels, the mosaic consists only of geometric panels.

On the front and back (north and south) are more elaborate panels. The one on the southern side contains two inscriptions facing one another. The one on the northern side contains not only an informative inscription, but also an elaborate rectangle enclosing eight smaller rectangles and rhombuses to form an internal octagon. Within the octagon, decorative tesserae transform the octagon into a circle or medallion. In the center of the medallion are two fish facing in opposite directions—a distinct Christian symbol for Christ.
....

A second inscription, on the northern side on the right, honors the man who paid for the mosaic and the artisan who made it:

Gaianus, also called Porphyrius, centurion, our brother, has made the pavement at his own expense as an act of liberality. Brutius carried out the work.

This is a clear indication that the Christians who worshiped in this prayer hall were Roman soldiers. The donor of the prayer hall was a Roman officer, a centurion. That there was a community of congregants is indicated by use of the term “our brother.”

The third and final inscription makes it unmistakably clear that this place was intended to serve the religious needs of the Christian community organized in the Roman military camp. It also removes any doubt that a table once existed in the center of the hall—paid for by a woman named Akeptous: “The God-loving Akeptous has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial.”

The words “God Jesus Christ” on the next-to-last line are abbreviated in the form of a contraction consisting of the first and last letters of the two words. Above the two sacred words is a straight line. While these abbreviations and the line above indicating sacred words was later a common practice, this is their earliest attestation.b

...
The word “offer” is of special interest. The Greek prosferein (“to offer”) echoes language in the Gospels; for example, the Magi, following the star from the East, “offer” the baby Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh (Matthew 2:11).

The word for memorial, mnemosynon, has its own story to tell. In Acts 10:4, where Cornelius the centurion becomes the first gentile convert to Christianity, an angel tells him that his prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial (mnemosynon).

The rooms adjacent to the prayer hall in this wing of the building served the multiple religious and social needs of the Christian community of Roman soldiers: vestries, baptisteries, confessionals, etc.

How can we date this building complex? There are a number of indications: pottery, coins and the paleography of the Greek inscriptions.

The excavators date the potsherds found beneath and above the floors of the building to the third century. A few sherds in one of the rooms have a larger chronological range, from the early third to early fourth centuries.

The numismatic evidence points to the same dates—that is, to the second, third and fourth centuries.

http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclu...church-02.asp#