Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-09-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Quote:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I think that this verse is pretty clear in identifying and defining sin as transgression of the law and transgression against the law. I don't think it merits a book

Are you saying this on the basis of the Greek text or on the above English translation of it?

Do you read Greek? If so, what words in the Greek text stand as the basis of the English expressions "transgression" and "of the law. Is the genitival construction above justified by the grammar of the Greek?

Jeffrey

Spanky · 01-09-2008, 07:27 PM

Again, when are you going to rewrite us a new translation since all of the translations are not sufficient? Until then, your knowledge of Greek makes you read into things just a tad bit!

mountainman · 01-09-2008, 07:35 PM

Jeffrey,

I made no claim according your specifications
below. Perhaps you have misinterpretted this:

Quote:

The therapeutae and priests of Asclepius were
healers, and ascetics. See Philo. Surely you
understand that Ascepius is mythologically the
son of Apollo.

Philo writes on the ascetics and separates
the Essenes and the Therapeutae. I have
listed the sources.

I agree that Philo does not mention Asclepius.
Where do you think I have claimed otherwise?
My claim is that Philo writes on the ascetics.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Pete,

Contrary to your claim, there are no texts or passages in Philo that speak either of Asclepius or of the "priests of Asclepius".

Prove me wrong by citing a specific Philonic text that does..

There are no traditions in any extant pre-1st century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or depicted as, an ascetic.

There are no traditions in any extant pre-2nd century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or depicted as, an ascetic.

There are no traditions in any extant pre-3rd century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or is depicted as, an ascetic.

Prove me wrong by citing an actual text from any of these periods that does.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-09-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Again, when are you going to rewrite us a new translation since all of the translations are not sufficient? Until then, your knowledge of Greek makes you read into things just a tad bit!

How do you know that I'm reading anything into the Greek if -- as is obvious -- you don't know what the Greek reads? How are you certain, as you seem to be, that the translation you offered of 1 Jn 3:4 is an accurate one?

Jeffrey

Amaleq13 · 01-09-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

But we're still waiting for Pete to state plainly a yes or no to the claim that Deut,. 6-8 is the background of the "temptation" story and what actual arguments (not assertions) he can mount and what evidence (not assertions) he can produce against it if he says "no, it's not".

Waiting but not holding our breath.

Quote:

But it's interesting to see how even those who say that this is what should be done nevertheless still don't follow their own advice when they get to interpreting what the story is all about and/or what the nature and the content of the "testing" was.

If they had a religious agenda and were concerned about undermining the "historicity" of the account by identifying a possible origin scripture, I would understand the flawed thinking. That isn't what is going on here, is it?

mountainman · 01-09-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

But we're still waiting for Pete to state plainly a yes or no to the claim that Deut,. 6-8 is the background of the "temptation" story and what actual arguments (not assertions) he can mount and what evidence (not assertions) he can produce against it if he says "no, it's not".

I would not buy a used chariot off Eusebius
let alone trust the "happy coincidence" by
which Constantine bound together the texts
of the nation of the Jews and the nation of
the "early christians".

The temptation story has a precedent with
the story of Buddha and Mara (The Devil)
totally outside the Jewish tradition.

The fact of the matter is that we have the
gospel authors claiming Jesus is not only
healing people, hand over foot, but also
instructing the disciples in how to heal some
of the difficult illnesses, etc. By fasting.

What sort of a practice is fasting?
Well its an ascetic practice.

Jesus was the new Healer God, designed to
surplant the existing Healing God Ascelpius,
whom has ample archaeological evidence.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-09-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

But we're still waiting for Pete to state plainly a yes or no to the claim that Deut,. 6-8 is the background of the "temptation" story and what actual arguments (not assertions) he can mount and what evidence (not assertions) he can produce against it if he says "no, it's not".

I would not buy a used chariot off Eusebius
let alone trust the "happy coincidence" by
which Constantine bound together the texts
of the nation of the Jews and the nation of
the "early christians".

The temptation story has a precedent with
the story of Buddha and Mara (The Devil)
totally outside the Jewish tradition.

The fact of the matter is that we have the
gospel authors claiming Jesus is not only
healing people, hand over foot, but also
instructing the disciples in how to heal some
of the difficult illnesses, etc. By fasting.

What sort of a practice is fasting?
Well its an ascetic practice.

Jesus was the new Healer God, designed to
surplant the existing Healing God Ascelpius,
whom has ample archaeological evidence.

Well ... I guess we still have to wait, since this is just another in a long line of dodges.

And BTW, even if there was some reason -- which Peter notably does not supply -- to suspect an actual dependence of the story of Jesus wilderness testing on the stories of Gautama's encounter with Mara, Mara is not the Devil in Buddhist thought, let alone the Satan of Job and intertestamental Judaism, the son of God who is divinely appointed to be the one who tests the (covenant) faithfulness of Israelites.

Jeffrey

Amaleq13 · 01-09-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What sort of a practice is fasting? Well its an ascetic practice.

In the context of the Gospels, it is a Jewish practice being taught by a man who explicitly denies being an ascetic like John. Continually ignoring that fact does not help your credibility at all. :banghead:

itsamysteryhuh · 01-09-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is John the Baptist who was the ascetic. Jesus was a lush.

Luke 5:27-39 has Jesus eating and drinking with the tax collectors and sinners.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

Since when does eating (because you're hungry) and drinking (because you're thirsty or want something to drink with your food) equal "lush?" :huh:

It's amazing how you twisted that to your own benefit, Toto. But shouldn't you instead be more concerned with the real truth, rather than the "truth" you want for yourself?

mountainman · 01-09-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What sort of a practice is fasting? Well its an ascetic practice.

In the context of the Gospels, it is a Jewish practice being taught by a man who explicitly denies being an ascetic like John. Continually ignoring that fact does not help your credibility at all. :banghead:

In the context of the question about the authors
of the gospels, which were written in an unknown
century yet to be determined, the authors may or
may not have been Jewish. Does anyone know?

Also we know there were Hellenised Jews such
as Philo, and entire groups called Essenes (who are
described as Pythagorean) who were "Hellenised".

So the people who wrote the gospels are not
necessarily the ones reported by the gospels
to have been resident in Judea c.30 CE. You
of course seem to make this assumption.

We have a story in text form. Nothing more.
It asserts Jesus to have practiced fasting for
a number of reasons, including the ability to
perform healings.

There is no difference between a Jewish
fast or a Hellenic or an Indian fast with
respect to the ascetic practice.

It was ancient currency. And its practitioners
were respected.

Here is some more from the WIKI page
quoted earlier by Toto .....

Quote:

Christianity

Asceticism within Christian tradition includes spiritual disciplines practiced to work out the believer's salvation, and express one's repentance for sin, with the ultimate aim of purifying the heart and mind, by God's grace, for encounter with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, (see Kenosis). Although certain monks and nuns today such as those in the Roman Catholic religious orders of the Carthusians, and Cistercians, are known for especially strict acts of asceticism, even more rigorous ascetic practices were common in the early Church. The deserts of the middle-east were at one time said to have been inhabited by thousands of hermits, amongst the most revered include St. Anthony the Great, St. Mary of Egypt, and St. Simeon Stylites.

Christian authors of late antiquity such as Origen, Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Augustine interpreted meanings of Biblical texts within a highly asceticized religious environment.

Through their commentaries, they created a new “asceticized Scripture,” and in the process an asceticized version of Christianity. Scriptural examples of asceticism could be found in the lives of John the Baptist, Jesus, the twelve apostles and Saint Paul, as well as in the primitive Christian community depicted by Luke (Acts 4:32), .

The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed ascetic practices of the ancient Jewish sect of Essenes who took vows of abstinence to prepare for a holy war.

Thus, the asceticism of practitioners like Jerome was hardly original (although some of his critics thought it was), and a desert ascetic like Antony the Great (251-356 CE) was in the tradition of ascetics in noted communities and sects of the previous centuries. Clearly, emphasis on an ascetic religious life was evident in both early Christian writings (see the Philokalia) and practices (see hesychasm). Other Christian followers of asceticism include the Cathars plus individuals such as Simeon Stylites, Saint David of Wales, and Francis of Assisi. (See The Catholic Encyclopedia for a fuller discussion.)

To the uninformed modern reader, early monastic asceticism may seem to be only about sexual renunciation. However, sexual abstinence was merely one aspect of ascetic renunciation. The ancient monks and nuns had other, equally weighty concerns: pride, humility, compassion, discernment, patience, judging others, prayer, hospitality, and almsgiving. For some early Christians, gluttony represented a more primordial problem than sex, and as such the reduced intake of food is also a facet of asceticism. As an illustration, the systematic collection of the Apophthegmata, or Sayings of the desert fathers and mothers has more than twenty chapters divided by theme; only one chapter is devoted to porneia ("sexual lust"). (See Elizabeth A. Clark. Reading Renunciation: Asceticism and Scripture in Early Christianity. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1999.)

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01-09-2008, 07:27 PM	#82
Spanky Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: US Posts: 1,216	Again, when are you going to rewrite us a new translation since all of the translations are not sufficient? Until then, your knowledge of Greek makes you read into things just a tad bit!

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