Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-29-2009, 08:26 PM

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Originally Posted by badger3k

So, it seems to be a matter of degree? Isn't it evil to keep the old man's wallet? Isn't that theft, a sin, isn't that evil? If not, then we are being punished for being wrong, but not evil? Wha?

No, I don't consider stealing an old mans wallet to be evil. I consider that to be wrong, and no morals whatsoever. We are being punished for disobeying God. Not for being wrong, but for being evil.

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For a crime your ancestor did? How are you responsible for his actions?

I'm not responsible for their actions. I'm held accountable for my own choices. Adam & Eve set the example.

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Basically, God is a bully who can do what he wants since he has the biggest...p...ower. Got it.

Yup, that's pretty much everything in a nutshell.

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So why is free will so important now, if you lose it later. This theology does fit in with the Zombie Jesus theology, so in a way it makes sense. Go to heaven, have your mind blasted and all your thoughts are filled with worshipping the monster that destroyed you. YHVH is Azathoth!

Freewill is important now because we still have the choice to decide good from evil. If you're an atheist, you are considered evil in the eyes of God.

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Which is why, as the bible points out, their eyes were opened AFTER they are of the fruit of the tree. Huh? Oh, sorry, that contradicts what you believe happened, so it must be another of those mistranslations that aren't mistranslations.

Huh? That's what I said all along. Their eyes were opened to sin and evil AFTER they ate the fruit! I said they had no knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit. No mistranslation. You need to pay attention!

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No, you punted and said they were different, while you showed no such thing. Theft is wrong, but not evil? Murder is evil, but not wrong?

Theft is wrong. But I don't believe God will send someone to Hell if they steal 5 bucks from an old man. You are blowing this way out of proportion. Murder is evil because God commands us not to murder. Is it wrong to murder someone? It all depends on the circumstances. If someone hurts my children in any manner, I guarantee I will serve my remaining days in a state prison. (Thank God I have that Eye for an Eye rule) Do you consider Capitol punishment to be wrong or evil? Oops, I forgot, you don't believe in evil. Because evil can't exist without a supernatural deity.

temporalillusion · 09-29-2009, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Huh? That's what I said all along. Their eyes were opened to sin and evil AFTER they ate the fruit! I said they had no knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit. No mistranslation. You need to pay attention!

So being naked isn't wrong, but it's evil? Adam and Even know right and wrong and were naked no problem, but then learned of evil and at that point learned they were naked... so people go to hell for being naked, naked is equivalent to murder?

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Murder is evil because God commands us not to murder.

God commands to keep the Sabbath, so anyone who works on a Sunday (turns on a light say) is evil?

God commands us to stone homosexuals, anyone who doesn't is evil?

There's no commandment against pedophilia, is that not evil, just wrong?

Or even though you chose an OT commandment to base your evil/wrong on, maybe we ignore the OT.. do unto others as we would have them do unto us. So keeping the wallet IS evil, any time we do something to others that we wouldn't want done to us regardless of the degree it is evil (disobeys God).. so then what's wrong?

I think you are making this up as you go along, I've never heard ANYTHING remotely close to what you are saying these past few pages in any church service while I was a Christian and in ministry.

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Is it wrong to murder someone? It all depends on the circumstances. If someone hurts my children in any manner, I guarantee I will serve my remaining days in a state prison. (Thank God I have that Eye for an Eye rule)

Um, no you don't have that rule.

Matthew 5:38. You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39. But I say to you, Do not resist evil: but whoever, shall inflict a blow on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also: 40. And to him who wishes to enter into a law-suit with thee, and to take away thy coat, allow him thy cloak also:

See, even hitting hitting whoever hut your children would be evil, in the words of Jesus. You are commanded to turn the other cheek, not doing so is evil by your own definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Do you consider Capitol punishment to be wrong or evil? Oops, I forgot, you don't believe in evil. Because evil can't exist without a supernatural deity.

Why can't it?

EDIT: Oh, forgot:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Theft is wrong. But I don't believe God will send someone to Hell if they steal 5 bucks from an old man.

I thought salvation was by faith through grace and the completed work of Christ on the cross? Or are you saying that you get into heaven through good works and out of heaven through bad works?

WilliamFearless · 09-29-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Theft is wrong. But I don't believe God will send someone to Hell if they steal 5 bucks from an old man. You are blowing this way out of proportion. Murder is evil because God commands us not to murder.

WTF? He also commands not to steal in the same list of commandments!

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Originally Posted by Exodus 20:1-17

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Is it wrong to murder someone? It all depends on the circumstances. If someone hurts my children in any manner, I guarantee I will serve my remaining days in a state prison. (Thank God I have that Eye for an Eye rule)

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Originally Posted by Matthew 5:38-48

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

What other parts of the bible are you personally allowed to disobey?

Sheshbazzar · 09-29-2009, 09:43 PM

Not only casting away his friends, but IBIH has also mentioned how his wife is noticing how he has became more distant, boasting about it as though distancing himself from the affectionate intimacy of his own wife was some sort of badge of honor.
I went through that phase myself and nearly destroyed my marriage with that self-centered and inconsiderate self-righteous smugness, one might well wonder how many otherwise stable marriages end up going into the toilet because of this kind of stupid mind-fucked conduct.

WilliamFearless · 09-29-2009, 10:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I went through that phase myself and nearly destroyed my marriage with that self-centered and inconsiderate self-righteous smugness,

Very sorry to hear that, Shesh. Thankfully, my devotion to my "sinner" friends was well placed. When the Christians eventually shunned me, the sinners remained my brothers.

I guess that's why Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax-collectors instead of the Pharisees. Better company in the end.

Sheshbazzar · 09-29-2009, 11:38 PM

It was painful at the time for both of us, but our marriage survived and is now in its 41st year. I do most sadly regret what I missed all of those years that my religious beliefs came between us.
I would by bringing this up, hope to discourage the Hymn singer (and other theists) from making the same error, and living to regret it as I have.
Although it is another Bible contradiction, a man ought to love and cherish his wife like his own flesh, treating her with all gentleness, care, and compassion, putting her happiness and welfare before his own, even as when he wooed her into his life. But one does not so do by forcing her to take a permanent back seat in 'hating' her or 'loving her less' than his imaginary invisable sky-buddy.

WilliamFearless · 09-29-2009, 11:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I do most sadly regret what I missed all of those years that my religious beliefs came between us.

I miss a good portion of my life in my 20's. Damn, I was in my prime! And the church fucked me up for years! I've only been able to finally let it all go in the past year, and become a much better and far more balanced person.

But, regardless, what I can take from it all is never again being duped into a cult/church/religion later in life. If we can learn from our mistakes, we have the gift of never repeating them.

I have a lot of life left in me, and I plan making the rest of it a full adventure, and never for a day living a life as empty as a born-again Christian's smile.

Congrats on 41 years, BTW!

dog-on · 09-30-2009, 12:27 AM

So IBIH, do you now understand why the Christian god and the Jewish god are, in fact 2 distinct entities?

IBelieveInHymn · 09-30-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilliamFearless

WTF? He also commands not to steal in the same list of commandments!

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. My God isn't as wicked as you assume. You have been cornered into admitting God is good.

I was hoping there would be an atheist that would decipher good from evil in the eyes of God sooner or later..

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What other parts of the bible are you personally allowed to disobey?

I'm not permitted to disobey any parts of the bible. I'm no one special. I said, I don't think God will send me to Hell for stealing $5 from someone. Afterall, he is a God of forgiveness, right? If he would send me to Hell for eternity, then he is going against his Word, and he did not sent Christ to save me from my sinful ways.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-30-2009, 09:03 AM

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Originally Posted by WilliamFearless

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I know everything. :wave:

There's the Christian attitude we all know and love!

You didn't pick up on the sarcasm? :Cheeky:

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09-29-2009, 09:43 PM	#364
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Not only casting away his friends, but IBIH has also mentioned how his wife is noticing how he has became more distant, boasting about it as though distancing himself from the affectionate intimacy of his own wife was some sort of badge of honor. I went through that phase myself and nearly destroyed my marriage with that self-centered and inconsiderate self-righteous smugness, one might well wonder how many otherwise stable marriages end up going into the toilet because of this kind of stupid mind-fucked conduct.

09-29-2009, 11:38 PM	#366
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	It was painful at the time for both of us, but our marriage survived and is now in its 41st year. I do most sadly regret what I missed all of those years that my religious beliefs came between us. I would by bringing this up, hope to discourage the Hymn singer (and other theists) from making the same error, and living to regret it as I have. Although it is another Bible contradiction, a man ought to love and cherish his wife like his own flesh, treating her with all gentleness, care, and compassion, putting her happiness and welfare before his own, even as when he wooed her into his life. But one does not so do by forcing her to take a permanent back seat in 'hating' her or 'loving her less' than his imaginary invisable sky-buddy.

09-30-2009, 12:27 AM	#368
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	So IBIH, do you now understand why the Christian god and the Jewish god are, in fact 2 distinct entities?

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