Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 10-01-2009, 07:21 AM

by simple translation, I meant by simply translating from x to y...

Kritikos · 10-01-2009, 07:26 AM

Thread title: Judaism is a Greek religion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

It's main text was written in Alexandria in Greek.

The Hebrew scriptures were written in Greek?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

One of its main cult's books are also Greek.

It are? Which one are that? And what is this "main cult" of Judaism to which you refer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I'm proposing something quite subtle - that the language creates the religion - that religions cannot actually be transplanted from one place to another, you always get something new once you put it into another language, so therefore Judaism is by definition Greek as that is its main language of expression.

How is Greek the "main language of expression" of Judaism? One would have thought it was Hebrew, or perhaps Aramaic around the beginning of the common era, or much later on maybe Yiddish.

I wonder if you meant to type the word "Christianity" in your heading.

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Archaic Biblical Hebrew from the 10th to the 6th century BCE, corresponding to the Monarchic Period until the Babylonian Exile and represented by certain texts in the Hebrew Bible (Tanach), notably the Song of Moses (Exodus 15) and the Song of Deborah (Judges 5). Also called Old Hebrew or Paleo-Hebrew. It was written in a form of the Canaanite script. (A script descended from this is still used by the Samaritans, see Samaritan Hebrew language.)
Biblical Hebrew around the 6th century BCE, corresponding to the Babylonian Exile and represented by the bulk of the Hebrew Bible that attains much of its present form around this time. Also called Classical Biblical Hebrew (or Classical Hebrew in the narrowest sense).
Late Biblical Hebrew, from the 6th to the 4th century BCE, that corresponds to the Persian Period and is represented by certain texts in the Hebrew Bible, notably the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. Basically similar to Classical Biblical Hebrew, apart from a few foreign words adopted for mainly governmental terms, and some syntactical innovations such as the use of the particle shel (of, belonging to). It adopted the Imperial Aramaic script.
Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew from the 3rd century BCE to the 1st century CE, corresponding to the Hellenistic and Roman Periods before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and represented by the Qumran Scrolls that form most (but not all) of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Commonly abbreviated as DSS Hebrew, also called Qumran Hebrew. The Imperial Aramaic script of the earlier scrolls in the 3rd century BCE evolved into the Hebrew square script of the later scrolls in the 1st century CE, also known as ketav Ashuri (Assyrian script), still in use today.
Mishnaic Hebrew from the 1st to the 3rd or 4th century CE, corresponding to the Roman Period after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and represented by the bulk of the Mishnah and Tosefta within the Talmud and by the Dead Sea Scrolls, notably the Bar Kokhba Letters and the Copper Scroll. Also called Tannaitic Hebrew or Early Rabbinic Hebrew.

There seem to be at least five "hebrews" in an identical way that I have great difficulty with Chaucer and find the KJV difficult, why would there be much communality of understanding between them?

Surely we should always look carefully at the original language, the changes over time and the effects of translation.

The Septaguint is critically important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

The thread on Bible Unearthed provoked me to start this thread. Maybe there is a huge amount of fiction not only about history but about language?

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 07:38 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

The main Jewish cult is of course xianity.

Quote:

The Hanukkah story is unremarked in the Hebrew Bible and barely referenced in the Talmud. Instead, it is recorded in books that were banished from the biblical canon by third-century rabbinic authorities and exiled, as the Books of the Maccabees, to the Apocrypha. That collection, which takes its name from the Greek "hidden away" or "secret," is mostly made up of Jewish writings in Greek—novels, sermons, histories, prophecies. The original story of Hanukkah, then, is the literary expression of a people that had deeply absorbed the language, thought, and values of Hellenistic civilization.

There are a number of reasons why rabbinic Judaism abandoned these texts. In the aftermath of the devastating losses inflicted by Rome on the Jews of Judea—beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., more than 200 years after the time of the Maccabees—the rabbis wanted to shape an inward-looking Judaism. They chose to portray the Jews as a historically small, proud, self-isolating people (think today's Vietnamese, Thais, Koreans), ready to martyr themselves in the battle against tyranny, a people capable of sustained spiritual resistance to foreign domination. The rabbis recast the Hanukkah story to match that self-image. They emphasized God's intervention on behalf of the Jews who'd been forced by the Greek Syrian King, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, publicly to violate Jewish law in 168 B.C.E. The Jews revolted, led by Mattathias, an elder in the Hasmonean family of priests, and his sons, the eldest of whom was Judah the Maccabee. With God's help, they succeeded in capturing the defiled Temple and rededicating it four years later.

http://joi.org/bloglinks/Slate%20-%2...s%20Ponet.html

A cosmopilitan religion widespread in the Greek, Persian, Roman and Carthaginian worlds was deliberately recast as a small persecuted group.

Are we sure Judaism is not a Greek religion and saying it is Hebrew isn't a propaganda statement by the winners of a local civil war?

IBelieveInHymn · 10-01-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Simple argument this.

It's main text was written in Alexandria in Greek. One of its main cult's books are also Greek.

Which makes me ask - are there several Christianities? - one of the more important ones being an English speaking version founded on the KJV, other main ones being Spanish, Russian, Greek and Coptic.

What is the relationship between language and religious expression?

The original texts of the bible are written in Hebrew, later translated to Greek. Then it became the most translated book in human history. God said his word will be preached to the world.

charley63 · 10-01-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

A cosmopilitan religion widespread in the Greek, Persian, Roman and Carthaginian worlds was deliberately recast as a small persecuted group.
Are we sure Judaism is not a Greek religion and saying it is Hebrew isn't a propaganda statement by the winners of a local civil war?

I get your point, but it seems a stretch. Greco-Roman civilization has definitely reshaped every society it has touched. It is also silly to claim an unbroken continuity from Abraham to today, the religious streams that trace to him have undergone massive changes.

However, I still see profound differences between Greek and Jewish cultures, with Christianity kind of in the middle. One can argue that in fact it was Judaism via Christianity that recast the Greek world into something entirely different. If you visit Greece today, you'll see a very proud embrace of both their pre-Christian and Christian heritages, almost seamlessly.

Peace! Charley

show_no_mercy · 10-01-2009, 08:23 AM

I think you could make a better argument that Judaism is a Persian religion.

spin · 10-01-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The Septaguint is critically important.

Most of the features once thought unique to the LXX have a Vorlage that was Hebrew, as shown in the DSS. 5% of biblical texts clearly support LXX readings (35% support Massoretic text and many don't seem to support any manuscript tradition).

spin

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 09:01 AM

But the Persians were Greek from at least the 300's BCE!

http://koolmini.com/resources/DSC02132a.JPG

(Picture of a Buddha)

show_no_mercy · 10-01-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

But the Persians were Greek from at least the 300's BCE!

http://koolmini.com/resources/DSC02132a.JPG

(Picture of a Buddha)

The Persians are the ones who release the Jews from exile around 500 BCE.

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10-01-2009, 07:21 AM	#11
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	by simple translation, I meant by simply translating from x to y...

10-01-2009, 08:23 AM	#17
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I think you could make a better argument that Judaism is a Persian religion.

10-01-2009, 09:01 AM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But the Persians were Greek from at least the 300's BCE! http://koolmini.com/resources/DSC02132a.JPG (Picture of a Buddha)

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