Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Awmte · 08-18-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So is the phrase "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" Aramaic or what?
My point is that the subsequent translation would be pretty redundant if Matthew were originally written in Aramaic.

So is this a clear example of redaction by a later exegete? Or would proto-Matthew already have this verse?

Markoff Chaney · 08-18-2006, 07:42 AM

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" is indeed an Aramaic phrase. The Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Greek so it makes sense that the author would make the translation.

John Kesler · 08-18-2006, 08:01 AM

Matthew uses the Hebrew Eli rather than the Aramaic Eloi found in Mark, perhaps to make the connection to the phrase's source, Psalm 22, more explicit, or to more readily explain why onlookers mistook Jesus' words as a cry to Elijah.

Chris Weimer · 08-18-2006, 11:36 AM

You might want to do a search on either judge or spin and "eli" + "matthew" + "Aramaic". And yes, the translation of the phrase is included in the Peshitta.

John Kesler · 08-18-2006, 12:58 PM

From The Oxford Companion to the Bible, page 184, article: "Eloi Eloi, Lema Sabachthani," emphasis mine:

Quote:

According to Mark 15.34 and Matthew 27.46, this phrase, a citation of the Hebrew or Aramaic text of Psalm 22.1, was uttered by Jesus from the cross...The Aramaic form of the saying is more sound textually, but the Hebrew form of the address ("Eli, Eli") better explains the subsequent confusion with Elijah. The tradition may have circulated in both a Hebrew and an Aramaic form, resulting in a corruption of the manuscripts.

New American Bible, footnote on Matthew 27:46, emphasis mine:

Quote:

Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?: Jesus cries out in the words of Psalm 22:2, a psalm of lament that is the Old Testament passage most frequently drawn upon in this narrative. In Mark the verse is cited entirely in Aramaic, which Matthew partially retains but changes the invocation of God to the Hebrew Eli, possibly because that is more easily related to the statement of the following verse about Jesus' calling for Elijah.

I could quote other scholarly sources which say the same thing.

aa5874 · 08-18-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying. Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This verse from Matthew also clearly points out that Luke's Jesus was different.
Luke's eyewitness report states, (Luke 23:46), 'And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus he gave up the ghost'.

So, we see Matthew's Jesus was depressed and forsaken, whereas Luke's Jesus is bold and courageous. And, if we look at the birth of Jesus, Matthew's account is full of fear and secrecy, in contrast to Luke's joyous and celebratory birth.

jakejonesiv · 08-18-2006, 02:11 PM

Both Matthew and Mark state what the cryptic phrase is supposed to mean, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" But they also go out of their way to tell you what it does not mean, "Elijah, Elijah, why don't you come to save me?” This is a pretty good hint that someone was promulgating exactly that.

2 Kings 1:9 Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, "Man of God, the king says, 'Come down!' "

What? This is similar to “Let him come down … for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' Matt. 27:42-43.

Jake Jones IV

08-18-2006, 02:11 PM	#7
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Elijah at the beginning, Elijah at the end. Both Matthew and Mark state what the cryptic phrase is supposed to mean, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" But they also go out of their way to tell you what it does not mean, "Elijah, Elijah, why don't you come to save me?” This is a pretty good hint that someone was promulgating exactly that. 2 Kings 1:9 Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, "Man of God, the king says, 'Come down!' " What? This is similar to “Let him come down … for he said, 'I am the Son of God.' Matt. 27:42-43. Jake Jones IV

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08-18-2006, 07:42 AM	#2
Markoff Chaney Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 58	"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" is indeed an Aramaic phrase. The Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Greek so it makes sense that the author would make the translation.

08-18-2006, 08:01 AM	#3
John Kesler Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 1,037	Matthew uses the Hebrew Eli rather than the Aramaic Eloi found in Mark, perhaps to make the connection to the phrase's source, Psalm 22, more explicit, or to more readily explain why onlookers mistook Jesus' words as a cry to Elijah.

08-18-2006, 11:36 AM	#4
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	You might want to do a search on either judge or spin and "eli" + "matthew" + "Aramaic". And yes, the translation of the phrase is included in the Peshitta.

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