Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 06-07-2005, 02:30 PM

An item is pictured here

Do you think it is genuine? Why, why not?

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

Wallener · 06-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Doesn't the earliest known use of the Magen David WRT Judaism date from the 12th century CE?

Toto · 06-07-2005, 03:06 PM

It could be genuine, but I'm not sure why it would be Christian. The alleged fish doesn't look like the usual fish symbol to me, and the alleged little cross in its eye looks like a chip in the surface.

But it seems more than a little suspicious. The Star of David was not a common symbol for Jews in that era, and did not come to symbolize Judaism until the 18th century CE.

Quote:

The earliest known Jewish use of the hexagram was as a seal in ancient Israel (6th century B.C.E.) and then eight centuries later in a *synagogue frieze in Capernaum. But these early hexagrams may have been only ornamental designs; ironically, a swastika, another popular ancient motif, appears alongside the hexagram on the Capernaum synagogue wall. In the Middle Ages, hexagrams appear frequently on churches, but rarely in synagogues or on Jewish ritual objects. It was the *menorah that served as the primary Jewish symbol from antiquity until the post-Renaissance period, not the " Jewish star."

Although scholars have attempted to trace the Star of David back to King David himself; to Rabbi Akiva and the Bar Kokhba ("son of the star") rebellion (135 C.E.); or to *kabbalists, especially Rabbi Isaac Luria (16th century), no Jewish literature or artifacts document this claim. Rather, all evidence suggests that the early use of the hexagram was limited to "practical Kabbalah," that is, Jewish magic, probably dating back to the 6th century C.E. Legends connect this symbol with the "Seal of Solomon," the magical signet signet *ring used by King Solomon to control demons and spirits. 2 Although the original ring was inscribed with the Tetragrammaton, the sacred Four-Letter *Name of God, medieval *amulets imitating this ring substituted the hexagram or pentagram (five-pointed stare), often accompanied by rampant *lions, for the sacred Name. The star inscribed on these rings was usually called the "Seal of Solomon."

. . .

Quoted for educational purposes from The Encyclopedia of Jewish Symbols,
by Ellen Frankel and Betsey Platkin Teutsch, p. 161; Jason Aronson Inc., 1992

(This is from a Messianic Judaism site.)

Besides which, anything that is associated with the lost Ark of the Covenant has to be viewed skeptically.

Here's another article: Biblical Tours which makes the whole think look at bit commercial:

Quote:

Three companies (Olim Creative Products of Tiberias, News About Israel (NAI) of Jerusalem, and Christian Floral Delivery of Colorado) jointly announced the discovery of this ancient symbol, which has been copyrighted by NAI. It consists of three separate but integrated symbols: a menorah at the top, a star of David in the middle, and a fish at the bottom. In each of the renditions of the three-part symbol the star is created by interlacing the stand of the menorah with the fish. The Messianic Seal was found etched or inscribed on eight ancient artifacts. The artifacts were presented to Ludwig Schneider, editor in chief of NAI's magazine, Israel Today, in 1990. They came from Tech Otecus, an elderly monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem. Otecus said that in the 1960s he had personally excavated about 40 artifacts bearing the seal itself.

. . .

According to Bob Fischer, president of Olim Creative Products and co-author with local historian and artist Reuven Schmalz of their book, The Messianic Seal of the Jerusalem Church, the ancient three-part symbol has, since 135 A.D., been suppressed by various Israeli groups or agencies, such as the Israel Museum and Orthodox rabbis in the Old City of Jerusalem, while simultaneously being buried for these nearly two millennia by the church.

Amaleq13 · 06-07-2005, 03:23 PM

I can't find any ancient depictions of a menorah with the perfect triangle base shown in the drawings. It certainly isn't included at this website about The Israeli Emblem. The depiction apparently shown on the Arch of Titus, symbolizing the 70CE destruction of the Temple, has a double-layered many-sided pedestal but it would be more of a step pyramid shape than a triangle in profile.

andrewcriddle · 06-07-2005, 03:26 PM

I'm very dubious about the claim that the Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem before the 2nd century used oil in baptism. The evidence seems to be that the use of chrismation in baptism/confirmation begins in the 2nd century and is originally confined to a/ Christians in Syria and b/ 'Gnostic' type groups outside Syria.

I share the scepticism about the Star of David being used symbolically that early. (According to Scholem its adoption as a general Jewish symbol is originally Sabbatian ie from the 17th century onwards.)

Andrew Criddle

yummyfur · 06-07-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I can't find any ancient depictions of a menorah with the perfect triangle base shown in the drawings. It certainly isn't included at this website about The Israeli Emblem. The depiction apparently shown on the Arch of Titus, symbolizing the 70CE destruction of the Temple, has a double-layered many-sided pedestal but it would be more of a step pyramid shape than a triangle in profile.

This base might not be original, Josephus while talking about this triumph talks about the Menorah and says:

Jospehus, Jewish War, Book 7, Chapter 5, Section 5
"But for those that were taken in the temple of Jerusalem, they made the greatest figure of them all; that is, the golden table, of the weight of many talents; the candlestick also, that was made of gold, though its construction were now changed from that which we made use of; for its middle shaft was fixed upon a basis,"

butswana · 06-08-2005, 06:25 AM

from the linked article:
"But ten years after its discovery, this historic, amazing find remains a well-kept secret. Ludwig Schneider approached the Israel Museum with the artifacts, and was promised that they would be put on display. But it never happened. It seems that the Israeli authorities do not want the mystery of the Messianic Seal to come to light."

This SCREAMS fake to me. Sounds like Ron Wyatt. Here we have this amazing find and the authorities are trying to supress it. Yeah, right. Blame it on the dirty Jews.

Amaleq13 · 06-08-2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

This base might not be original...

True but I was exploring it from the angle of assuming both symbols existed independently and were later combined to form the Star. There doesn't appear to be any evidence for that possibility.

Steven Avery · 06-08-2005, 08:40 AM

Hi Andrew,

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I'm very dubious about the claim that the Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem before the 2nd century used oil in baptism....

As I read the article, the use of oil in baptism is an interpretation of the author, there wasn't any sort of written idea in the actual archaelogy of sealing with oil during baptism. We do know that anointing with oil is specifically mentioned in the epistles in relation to healing, so it would not be surprising to find references to an anointing oil in any setting in the first centuries. Am I missing something in reading the text ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I share the scepticism about the Star of David being used symbolically that early. (According to Scholem its adoption as a general Jewish symbol is originally Sabbatian ie from the 17th century onwards.)

True, this may be a most important scholarly point for consideration -- do we have *ANY* other "Star of Davids" in that era ? If not, it would be surprising to see it as an orphan occurence, and one would give more weight to the forgery, or much later addition to the pottery, possibility.

The copyrighting is defintely not a good sign, and would probably be invalid if the seal were genuine ! :-) (We had major discussions on copyrighting of ancient artifactsvis a vis the Elisha Qimron vs BAR/Shanks lawsuit, and without adding any intellectual material, such as reconstruction or commentary, such a copyright would appear to be prima facie junque).

btw, as I remember reading Scholem on the Shield/Star, he is quite a bit nuanced, because at the same time that he was acknowledging the rarity of the Star, and its use in kabbalism, he was sort of defending it as possibly Solomonic. However, my reading was a few years back, and the longest section Scholem wrote on it is in a book not in my home library :-)

The "Ark of the Covenant" reference was more of a throw-in, and really would not offer much of substance to the article.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

The rest of this post has been split to form a new thread here.

-Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

andrewcriddle · 06-08-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Hi Andrew,

As I read the article, the use of oil in baptism is an interpretation of the author, there wasn't any sort of written idea in the actual archaelogy of sealing with oil during baptism. We do know that anointing with oil is specifically mentioned in the epistles in relation to healing, so it would not be surprising to find references to an anointing oil in any setting in the first centuries. Am I missing something in reading the text ?

No I think you're probably right.

Andrew Criddle

06-07-2005, 02:30 PM	#1
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Fake or Not An item is pictured here Do you think it is genuine? Why, why not? best wishes, Peter Kirby

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-07-2005, 02:46 PM	#2
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	Doesn't the earliest known use of the Magen David WRT Judaism date from the 12th century CE?

06-07-2005, 03:23 PM	#4
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	I can't find any ancient depictions of a menorah with the perfect triangle base shown in the drawings. It certainly isn't included at this website about The Israeli Emblem. The depiction apparently shown on the Arch of Titus, symbolizing the 70CE destruction of the Temple, has a double-layered many-sided pedestal but it would be more of a step pyramid shape than a triangle in profile.

06-07-2005, 03:26 PM	#5
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I'm very dubious about the claim that the Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem before the 2nd century used oil in baptism. The evidence seems to be that the use of chrismation in baptism/confirmation begins in the 2nd century and is originally confined to a/ Christians in Syria and b/ 'Gnostic' type groups outside Syria. I share the scepticism about the Star of David being used symbolically that early. (According to Scholem its adoption as a general Jewish symbol is originally Sabbatian ie from the 17th century onwards.) Andrew Criddle

06-08-2005, 06:25 AM	#7
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	from the linked article: "But ten years after its discovery, this historic, amazing find remains a well-kept secret. Ludwig Schneider approached the Israel Museum with the artifacts, and was promised that they would be put on display. But it never happened. It seems that the Israeli authorities do not want the mystery of the Messianic Seal to come to light." This SCREAMS fake to me. Sounds like Ron Wyatt. Here we have this amazing find and the authorities are trying to supress it. Yeah, right. Blame it on the dirty Jews.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.