Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 09-04-2004, 03:00 AM

I have seen arguments made before regarding this in the Jesus Mysteries list.

The Argument:

1. Ant 18:5:2, which is about JBap's death abruptly intrudes into the surrounding text, which is about the war between Aretas and Herod.

2. In Ant 18:5:2, we find:

Quote:

Now when [many] others came in crowds about him[JBap], for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII

Now, Herod could not have sent JBap to Macherus because Macherus was under the control (dominion) of Aretas, Herod's adversary. Thus this passage could not have been written by the same hand because it contradicts what it says in the passage preceeding it.

Arguments Against Christian Interpolation

1. The Death of JBap contradicts the one in the Gospel accounts - it is, indeed, independent of it.

2. The narrative suggests that JBap died during the time of Vitellius, not of Pilate as we find in the Gospels

Solution

The interpolator was a Xstian who held a non-gospel view of JBap maybe the (proto) Mandaeans who were followers of JBap, due to the significance they attach to his slaying.

Implications

If the passage was interpolated, Josephus was not a witness to JBap - that places the historicity of JBap on shaky ground.

What are your thoughts on this?

Toto · 09-04-2004, 10:44 AM

I'm a bit dubious that an interpolation can be demonstrated.

Frank Zindler argues for interpolation in "The Jesus The Jews Never Knew." The strongest point for interpolation is that the passage has JtB executed at Macherus, which Josephus had told us not that long before was under the control of Aretas.

But this might be better explained as an error or just an unknown feature, or even a later interpolation by Josephus or a Greek editor. You would expect that a Christian interpolator would make the reference in Josephus look at little bit more like the gospel version. But Josephus and the gospels disagree on why John baptized (for purity or for the remission of sins?)

Here's a prior thread that discusses this and reprints Josephus on JtB, and discusses Zindler's theories:

Josephus on John the Baptist

Here's a review of Zindler's book by Vork with discussion.

You can find more prior threads by searching for Zindler or Baptist.

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09-04-2004, 10:44 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I'm a bit dubious that an interpolation can be demonstrated. Frank Zindler argues for interpolation in "The Jesus The Jews Never Knew." The strongest point for interpolation is that the passage has JtB executed at Macherus, which Josephus had told us not that long before was under the control of Aretas. But this might be better explained as an error or just an unknown feature, or even a later interpolation by Josephus or a Greek editor. You would expect that a Christian interpolator would make the reference in Josephus look at little bit more like the gospel version. But Josephus and the gospels disagree on why John baptized (for purity or for the remission of sins?) Here's a prior thread that discusses this and reprints Josephus on JtB, and discusses Zindler's theories: Josephus on John the Baptist Here's a review of Zindler's book by Vork with discussion. You can find more prior threads by searching for Zindler or Baptist.

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