Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

That is easily explained by the facts that the partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy, and that the Middle East has the largest oil reserves in the world. If the Arab-Israel conflict was happening in the middle of a remote Australian desert that had few natural resources, most nations would not care about the conflict.

Ok so if I'm understanding your logic note the following steps.

1. God never predicted the future accurately in the Old Testament,ie, all of the land of Israel was never given to Abraham.

Apparently not, since Israel never possessed the entire amount of land described in the prophecy. Moreover, Israel was constantly under the thumb of some giant empire.

Quote:

2. The State of Israel that is in existence is the result of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy. That is military and politics are the only factors that led to the State of Israel coming into existence in 1948.

If you have evidence of any other factors, please let us know.

Quote:

3. These "prophecies" would have come true even if the Bible was never written? :huh:

Oh, I suppose that the religious nature of the prophecies probably made people want to "help God out" and made them more motivated to create the state of Israel. But that's what mythology does: we tell our kids stories about the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln to enhance their sense of groupthink and give them a sense of belonging to a larger whole. But many of those stories we tell our kids simply aren't true - they're part of a national mythology.

Same thing with Israel.

And so far, you have provided no evidence of any divine intervention - which is what you need to show your claim. I also provided you with three easy steps to prove your claim. As we expected, you ignored the post and have been trying studiously to shift the burden of proof.

It isn't working. :rolling:

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 09:38 AM

So if there was no bible ever written the State of Israel would have "magically" come into existence in 1948?

Jack the Bodiless · 01-29-2008, 09:42 AM

Arnoldo, is there any chance that you will finally come up with this "prophecy" at some point?

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Arnoldo, is there any chance that you will finally come up with this "prophecy" at some point?

Israel has never been scattered to all the nations in the Old Testament times the Jews left Israel at various times such as Egypt, Babylon, but they always returned. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, the jews were scattered to all the nations.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 30

then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes[1] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back.

He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

makerowner · 01-29-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

So if there was no bible ever written the State of Israel would have "magically" come into existence in 1948?

No one said that. STOP MAKING SHIT UP!! :banghead:

Jack the Bodiless · 01-29-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Arnoldo, is there any chance that you will finally come up with this "prophecy" at some point?

Israel has never been scattered to all the nations in the Old Testament times the Jews left Israel at various times such as Egypt, Babylon, but they always returned.

I have already pointed out that this is not true. The Assyrian captives never returned: hence the legend of the "lost tribes of Israel".

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, the jews were scattered to all the nations.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 30

then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes[1] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back.

He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

After wholesale captivity in Babylon, Assyria, and (according to legend) Egypt (plus who-knows-how-many smaller incidents of enslavement or voluntary emigration to neigboring states): that would have been true before the Diaspora.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel has never been scattered to all the nations in the Old Testament times the Jews left Israel at various times such as Egypt, Babylon, but they always returned.

I have already pointed out that this is not true. The Assyrian captives never returned: hence the legend of the "lost tribes of Israel".

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, the jews were scattered to all the nations.

After wholesale captivity in Babylon, Assyria, and (according to legend) Egypt (plus who-knows-how-many smaller incidents of enslavement or voluntary emigration to neigboring states): that would have been true before the Diaspora.

Well the following never happened so I guess God lied to Israel.

Quote:

Amos 9:13

“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-29-2008, 10:12 AM

Correct. Falsified by the Diaspora, so Amos was another false prophet.

makerowner · 01-29-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Well the following never happened so I guess God lied to Israel.

Quote:

Amos 9:13

“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Sure. How is that an argument that Israel is proof of God's existence?

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel has never been scattered to all the nations in the Old Testament times the Jews left Israel at various times such as Egypt, Babylon, but they always returned.

Apparently not, since even today more Jews live outside of Israel than live inside its borders. Some "return" ya got there, arnoldo!

Just another inconvenient fact for you to choke on.:Cheeky:

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01-29-2008, 09:38 AM	#882
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	So if there was no bible ever written the State of Israel would have "magically" come into existence in 1948?

01-29-2008, 09:42 AM	#883
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Arnoldo, is there any chance that you will finally come up with this "prophecy" at some point?

01-29-2008, 10:12 AM	#888
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Correct. Falsified by the Diaspora, so Amos was another false prophet.

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