Kattaz

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
-- Matthew 16:28
"And he said to them, 'I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power'."
-- Mark 9:1
"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
-- Luke 9:27
Revelations 14:1-5 show the existance of some diferent people who reside on the Sion mountain. They are taken from the earth, and they live with the Lamb (Jesus). We have to belive that some of the people who have heard the Jesus words are there and they are still alive, kidnaped from the earth. I also know that fact is impossible to prove, but the Revelation is a sufficient prove to consider veridicity of profecy.
„1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

sharon45

Which really shows nothing because you are only using quotes from the NT.

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, first off, let's put those in the correct order (of chronology).

First there was Mark. Then Matthew used Mark to write "his" version, then Luke used Mark to write "his" version (or so goes the current theological/biblical studies on the issue).

So, what we actually have is, whoever wrote GMark (and Paul) making these claims and whoever wrote GMatthew and GLuke repeating what the author of GMark said (and possibly, Paul).

Then we supposedly have (if biblical scholarship memory serves), whoever wrote Luke writing Revelations (though, again, I'm sketchy on the whole attribution thing). Maybe it was whoever wrote GJohn. Anyway....

Not just "some different people," but the 144,000 saved. Let's quote the section so we know what we're dealing with.

I use Young's Literal Translation to avoid problems of interpolations and biased exegesis.

They are, apparently, virgins (at least heterosexual virgins) and they were "bought," which is interesting, especially when you consider the phrase "a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb" just after reiterating that they were "bought from among men."

Who did the "buying" and what does that make the 144,000, if not sacrificial male virgin slaves (though, I suppose they could also be lesbians who were never "defiled" by a woman)?

Well, now, can you really say that? They are "bought" from the Earth and they follow the Lamb. Nitpick, I know, but salient.

Do you think the Corinthians or the Thessolonians were all virgin males, or the people that Jesus was allegedly speaking to in Mark? And do you think that Jesus spoke to 144,000 virgin males at some point in his life, that were then marked by god and "bought" from Earth?

That's a considerable amount of virgin males, don't you think? Wouldn't such an event be mentioned in Mark (or Matthew or Luke)? And if Jesus didn't address those 144,000 virgin males all at once in order for them to be marked and "bought" from earth, what do you think the chances are that Jesus, in the two or three years he preached spoke to a random total of 144,000 virgin males?

Considering the population and practices of the region, don't you think that's a little far fetched?

Let's say it isn't. Let's say that Jesus preached to and therefore "marked" 144,000 virgin males who were then "bought" by somebody from earth to follow him around. Where were they when the "crowd" inexplicably and illogically forced Pilate to murder a man he had just declared (thrice) to be innocent of all charges?

They followed him around only in Heaven? They were "bought" from earth (from someone unknown) in order to follow Jesus around for what purpose?

We do? Why do we "have to believe" this? And, again, not "some of the people who have heard Jesus words" but 144,000 virgin males (presumably), who heard Jesus' words.

Again, where were these 144,000 when the "crowd" inexplicably forced Pilate to rescind his declaration of innocence and murder an innocent man? Where were these 144,000 virgin males in Mark or Matthew or Luke or in any of Paul's writings? Granted he preached celibacy, so possibly he "marked" the 144,000, but then that would mean they didn't hear Jesus' words; they only heard Jesus' words as perverted through Paul, which, as you know, was quite a perversion.

Not just that, but highly suspect, don't you think? 144,000 virgin males who heard Jesus' words, presumably directly, but possibly by proxy?

And why just virgin males (if indeed, that's what was meant)? They might not have had sex, but that wouldn't mean they weren't otherwise sinful. Indeed, according to OT exegesis by christian apologists, everyone is born sinful, regardless of whether or not they had sex with women, so does it mean, necessarily that these 144,000 virgin males were not otherwise sinners? They were "marked" and bought and their job was to follow Jesus around.

I don't see how that translates into them having never died. Wouldn't "bought" from earth be a logical euphemism for died and taken?

I'll assume you mean "veracity of prophecy" (and no slight intended, as I note that English is probably not your first language and I applaud you for being so intelligent as to learn other languages so well), but why would "Revelation" be sufficient to prove the veracity of prophecy? Mark said "some" among you will not taste of death. Jesus wasn't talking to 144,000 plus people when he said that, yes?

So far, all it says is 144,000 virgin males (presumably) were "bought" from earth to follow Jesus around. That doesn't necessarily equate with "Some of you won't die" nor does it answer Paul's claim that he wouldn't die either (1 Corinthians 15, if memory serves). Though, I suppose there's anecdotal evidence that Pual might have been a virgin, the probable fact was that Paul preached out of bad personal experience.


So, Jesus, in Mark, was speaking to at least 144,000 virgin males who were without fault before the throne of God when he said, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power?"

According to Revelation, the 144,000 are already in heaven. Note again the beginning of the quote:

"And I saw" is a proclamation of prophecy; a precursor to what is to follow.

"[A]nd lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion" is a past tense reference.

In more modern speak, it would be, "Listen to what I have seen. I have seen the Lamb. The same one who stood upon mount Sion. And in my vision, I saw him surrounded by a 144,000 people who all had the name of god tatooed on their foreheads."

It wouldn't be, "I saw Jesus surrounded by 144,000 virgin males while he was preaching on Earth."

Nice try, though.

Demosthenes

Kattaz, do state what's your purpose in starting this thread. If all you're going to do is post verses then this thread is going straight to ~Elsewhere~

spin

As I haven't been following the non-Q logic too much -- I mean that variety that has Luke copied partly from Matthew --, how do they explain Luke having "the kingdom of God" a la Mark, while Matthew has "the son of man in his kingdom" at a literary level? That Luke seems to have got it from Mark seems far more obvious. Or... perhaps... Matthew has changed since Luke...


spin

CX

Actually the apocalypse is usually attributed to "John the Seer". Biblical scholars suggest this is some unknown John who was a prophet. Church tradition has sometimes attributed it to John son of Zebedee the apostle to whom is attributed the gospel of John and the epistles. This attribution is generally regarded as incorrect in the field of biblical scholarship (cf. History and Theology of The New Testament Writings by Udo Schnelle). The consensus is that different individuals wrote the Revelation and the Gospel (and epistles) of John. Additionally it has been speculated that GJohn may have been written by the "Presbyter John" mentioned by Papias.

Kattaz

Hello Koyaanisqatsi,

First: not all 144000 live in the time of Jesus. Only few may lisen His words; the others are taken from other places and other periods of time.
Why they are redeemed? Because all mens are under a curse and they have to die. They are redeemed from that curse for a period of time, and they will be transformed as come from dead when Jesus arrive for second time.
Some of Corinthians and Thessolonians may also be there, but there is another situation: the kidnaping of normal (non-virgin if you want) people, mens and womens, at the moment of Jesus arrival.

P.S. When you learn romanian as I can speak english, you can make any observations you want.

Doctor X

Kattaz:

You would probably do well to familiarize yourself with current NT scholarship. The Recommended Reading section has some great books. There are also links to pages.

--J.D.

Godless Wonder

I was just reading "Treatise on the Gods" by H. L. Mencken (interesting, very dry sense of humor ) and he says much the same in this book.
What does that mean for those who would say that Mark 9.1 refers to John "seeing" the kingdom come with power, and pointing to Revelation, saying John is the one who "sees" this, and describes what he sees in Revelation?

Interestingly, this book was a good seller, the 1st and 2nd printings sold out before publication, with 8 more printings in the years following before the revised edition I have (1946). Maybe such a book was a novelty back then (1930).

Yahzi

I, for one, would like to vote for Kattaz's spelling of "prophecy." His way make a lot more sense.



Seriously, your English is pretty good. It's your facts that need work.