Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 04-26-2009, 10:57 AM

Reading through DSS, I came over "new covenant" mentioned in 1QpHab. Until now, I thought "new covenant" is only christian idea. What do we know about new covenant in non-christian jewish sects?

fromdownunder · 04-26-2009, 02:26 PM

The New Covenant was originally a Jewish concept and comes from Jeremiah 31:31-32

(NIV)

"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.

Paul just borrowed it.

Norm

arnoldo · 04-26-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Reading through DSS, I came over "new covenant" mentioned in 1QpHab. Until now, I thought "new covenant" is only christian idea. What do we know about new covenant in non-christian jewish sects?

The 1QpHab seems to be a commentary of the book of Habakkuk. Paul does in fact quote from Habakkuk 2:4 in the following verse;

Quote:

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

In contrast, if people were able to otain righteousness through following the "old covenant" then there would be no need for "living by faith" which the following source states much more eloquently;

Quote:

2.3. Christ Did Not Die For Nothing (Gal 2:21)

In Gal 2:21, Paul writes, “If righteousness is through the Law, then Christ died for nothing” (ei gar dia nomou dikaiosunê, ara Christos dôrean apethanen) (Gal 2:21). In this context, the noun “righteousness” (dikaiosunê) denotes that which human beings have insofar as they have perfectly obeyed the Law; for this reason, they can be said to be acceptable to God. Although somewhat cryptic, taken in light of what he writes in Gal 2:16-20, Paul means that, if it were possible for a person to obtain a righteousness by obedience to the Law, then Christ’s death would have been unnecessary. The phrase through the Law (dia nomou) is a shorter synonym for the phrase “from the works of the Law” (ex ergôn nomou), which occurs twice in Gal 2:16-17 (see Gal 2:19 for a parallel use of the phrase “through the Law” [dia nomou]). Paul posits two possible ways of acquiring for oneself righteousness: through the Law or by means of the death of Christ. In his view, these are mutually exclusive. He believes, however, that the former is merely a theoretical possibility, since no one can actually obey the Law perfectly and thereby obtain righteousness. The protasis “If righteousness is through the Law,” in other words, is false, and so the apodosis “then Christ died for nothing” is likewise untrue (see Gal 3:18 for similar construction). The fact that Christ’s death was soteriologically necessary implies that righteousness is not obtainable through obedience to the Law, implicitly because no one can obey it perfectly. Paul’s opponents would not deny that gentiles are sinners and even that Jews sin, but they would not draw the radical conclusion from this that righteousness cannot be through the Law; rather they would adopt some type of synergistic soteriology, in which imperfect obedience would suffice. Paul does not agree with such a unjustified compromise.
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/pauline/Soter2.htm

Perhaps the Essenes also thought they were followers of a "new doctrine"?

vid · 04-27-2009, 05:09 AM

How do Jews today view Jeremiah's "new covent" prophecy? Are they still under old covenant, waiting for YHWH to establish new one?

Clivedurdle · 04-27-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

though I was a husband to them

Compare that Jewish apocalyptic work Revelation. Actually if Christ were translated as annointer, and the fetish with a messiah victor removed, has Judaism had its new covenant for a long time, searching out the spirit of the law?

The problem is the reification of this christer - (why only one? There have always been loads of priests) by Paul and this adding in of this magical one dying for all thinking.

bacht · 04-27-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

though I was a husband to them

Compare that Jewish apocalyptic work Revelation. Actually if Christ were translated as annointer, and the fetish with a messiah victor removed, has Judaism had its new covenant for a long time, searching out the spirit of the law?

Jews were forced to re-think the Law after Masada and bar-Kochba. It really was a kind of new covenant (no temple, no state), but this terminology was appropriated by Christians.

The Jews became citizens of the world, and the Christians became Roman authoritarians. It's a strange world.

Clivedurdle · 04-27-2009, 01:54 PM

Xianity is a Jewish cult - into priests and Messiahs with St Francis Pharisaic Essene Judaic traits bubbling up, but really preferring the Persian priestly root.

Clivedurdle · 04-27-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Compare that Jewish apocalyptic work Revelation. Actually if Christ were translated as annointer, and the fetish with a messiah victor removed, has Judaism had its new covenant for a long time, searching out the spirit of the law?

Jews were forced to re-think the Law after Masada and bar-Kochba. It really was a kind of new covenant (no temple, no state), but this terminology was appropriated by Christians.

The Jews became citizens of the world, and the Christians became Roman authoritarians. It's a strange world.

The rethinking started much earlier, with Babylon, the prophets, Alexander and the majority of Jews living outside Palestine.

storytime · 04-27-2009, 02:57 PM

The Jews were citizens within the countries of the Roman Empire; Greece, Egypt, etc. (the world). My problem is understanding why the Jews would not have considered other tribal names as compiling the whole house of Israel identity. The Jesus sect of Jews evidently saw the division of Judah and Israel still in effect and awaited a restoration "in gods own time". Peter seems to have expected this restoration of Judah and Israel when explaining to "the stranger" on the road to Emaneus the events that had occured when Jesus was cruficied. It had been three days since the crucifixion and Peter had expected Jesus to return and reunite the tribes.

God being revealed from"faith to faith" seems to indicate how the Jews would believe in god from one generation to another, and has nothing to do with a Gentile people being brought into the covenant.

storytime · 04-27-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Compare that Jewish apocalyptic work Revelation. Actually if Christ were translated as annointer, and the fetish with a messiah victor removed, has Judaism had its new covenant for a long time, searching out the spirit of the law?

Jews were forced to re-think the Law after Masada and bar-Kochba. It really was a kind of new covenant (no temple, no state), but this terminology was appropriated by Christians.

The Jews became citizens of the world, and the Christians became Roman authoritarians. It's a strange world.

Were they forced to rethink the law or rethink animal sacrifice?

04-26-2009, 10:57 AM	#1
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	New covenant outside Christianity Reading through DSS, I came over "new covenant" mentioned in 1QpHab. Until now, I thought "new covenant" is only christian idea. What do we know about new covenant in non-christian jewish sects?

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04-26-2009, 02:26 PM	#2
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	The New Covenant was originally a Jewish concept and comes from Jeremiah 31:31-32 (NIV) "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. Paul just borrowed it. Norm

04-27-2009, 05:09 AM	#4
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	How do Jews today view Jeremiah's "new covent" prophecy? Are they still under old covenant, waiting for YHWH to establish new one?

04-27-2009, 01:54 PM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Xianity is a Jewish cult - into priests and Messiahs with St Francis Pharisaic Essene Judaic traits bubbling up, but really preferring the Persian priestly root.

04-27-2009, 02:57 PM	#9
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	The Jews were citizens within the countries of the Roman Empire; Greece, Egypt, etc. (the world). My problem is understanding why the Jews would not have considered other tribal names as compiling the whole house of Israel identity. The Jesus sect of Jews evidently saw the division of Judah and Israel still in effect and awaited a restoration "in gods own time". Peter seems to have expected this restoration of Judah and Israel when explaining to "the stranger" on the road to Emaneus the events that had occured when Jesus was cruficied. It had been three days since the crucifixion and Peter had expected Jesus to return and reunite the tribes. God being revealed from"faith to faith" seems to indicate how the Jews would believe in god from one generation to another, and has nothing to do with a Gentile people being brought into the covenant.

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