aa5874

Maybe it was not.

dog-on

If not, then who came up with the Virgin birth story, as related to JC? I discount Luke as later, (still in Marcion's hands during Justin's time), so that only leaves Matthew, imo...

aa5874

I don't think the NT represents an accurate account of the origin of the Jesus story. Perhaps it was originally believed that Jesus was not born, but came directly from heaven.

dog-on

I do not disagree, but that does not preclude Matthew as being the story to which Justin is alluding.

Malachi151

What I'm saying is that THERE WAS NO JESUS STORY AT ALL.

The authors of the various Gospels INVENTED THE JESUS STORY.

My view is that the Gospel authors, at least Mark, Matthew, and John, weren't "passing on" ANY traditions, or ANY existing beliefs, they were INVENTING the traditions and beliefs out of whole cloth themselves.

I'm saying that there WAS NO "virgin birth" story prior to the author of the Gospel Matthew having invented it. The virgin birth story of Jesus came into existence with the pen of Matthew, it never existed prior to that.

The author of Mark invented the entire Markan narrative, there was no Jesus narrative at all until the author of the Gospel called Mark invented one himself from his own imagination without the use of any pre-exiting traditions or stories.

The author of Matthew used the Markan narrative and then made up his own additional story elements. None of them reflect any pre-existing traditions other than Matthew of course being based on Mark, and Mark being based on Paul.

So, Mark reflects Pauline traditions and Matthew reflects the Markan narrative, and that's it. There is nothing else. There are no other secret traditions there is no secret chain of stories leading back to some real person, there is no chain of myths originating from Horus or Osiris or Dionysus, or anyone else. There are just newly created stories that were created from the minds of the authors, based on the Pauline writings and the Jewish scriptures, and thats it, that's the whole beginning and end of it all. There is no "pagan" influence, there are no far reaching traditions, there are no eyewitness accounts, there is no apostolic tradition, there are just a few guys who wrote creative stories that later came to be believed by some hapless Romans as "true biographies" and that's the whole story of how the Gospels came to be.

spamandham

This isn't so clear to me. It could be the other way around just as eaily, or both could have been based on a something common from an earlier time.

Solo

This is good stuff. I was not aware of that. Sure worth while looking into.

No doubt of the female motif. I guess Kalypso's cave would come to mind first. It is not at all surprising that the cave was the original nativity scene for Jesus. But I think there is a second element present there. The cave was customarily the abode of hermits and mystics who sought solutide in the wild. The darkness of the cave would provide the effects of a sensory deprivaton chamber. The photic phenomena (of inner light) are much more readily summoned in complete darkness. So I think the nativity scene is a secondary symbolic rendering of the "spiritual birth", as per John 3:1-15, or Gospel of Thomas 4. (An old man heavy in years, will not hesitate to ask a baby seven days old about the Place of Life. And he shall live, for many who are first shall be last, and they will become as One.)

Jiri

aa5874

I completely disagree with this theory. It is my opinion that the NT represents distortions of the origin of Christianity and the stories of the origin of Jesus.

Eusebius in Church History claimed Mark was a disciple of Peter and receive his gospel from the very same Peter, and you claim that Mark used "Pauline" tradition.

There is more to Christianity and Jesus than Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul.

The NT is just propaganda.

spamandham

What about the ritualistic consumption of the body and blood of Jesus to gain new life? I can't think anything similar to that in Judaism, but it is remarkably similar to Horus/Osiris rituals:

...some fairly weak parallels individually (all pyramid text references/translations gathered from http://www.pyramidtextsonline.com). Keep in mind in all these, that Unas = Horus

Pyramid text utterance 32:22
"This is your libation, O Unas, coming
-Libation (and) two pellets of natron-
from your son, coming from Horus."

- and the parallel of Jesus providing the wine at both the wedding of Canna and the last supper

From the same utterance:
" I have come, I bring you the Eye of Horus,
so that your heart may be refreshed by it.
I bring it to you to carry you, (to be) under your soles. "

- contrast with 1 Philemon 20 "Refresh my heart in Christ."

Utterance 39:31
"Unas, take the Eye of Horus to which he went! I bring it to you, put it into your mouth. "

- here we have the idea of new life through the drinking of a libation identified with Horus...a parallel to the win of the eucharist?

Utterance 41:32
"Take the tip of the bodily breast of Horus, take it into your mouth!"

- a parallel to the bread of the last supper?

Utterance 42
"Take the full (?) breast of your sister Isis, bring it unto your mouth!"

...ok, I just through that one in for fun

Utterance 83:
"The Eye of Horus is given to him that he may be satisfied with it. "

proverbs 20:13 (OT, buy hey)
"open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread."

utterance 89
"take the Eye of Horus, pulled out of him! "

utterance 118
Osiris Unas, take your Eye, seize it!

utterance 121:77
Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus, pulled out of him!

142:87
Osiris Unas, take the Eye of Horus! It shall not be cut off from you!

Mark 9:47
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell"

Utterance 261:334
"The fury of the Great Lake (S wr) avoided him.
His fare is not taken in the Great Ferryboat.
The Shrine of the Great Ones (Hedj-uru) could not ward him off the road (msk.t) of the sehedu-stars. "

...a parallel to the story of Jesus walking on water during the storm?

Utterance 267:365
"The earth is beaten into steps for him towards heaven,
that he may mount on it towards heaven,
and he rises on the smoke of the great fumigation."

and

271:390
Unas ascends on that ladder which his father Re has made for him.
Horus and Seth seize the arm of Unas and take him to the Duat Region.

...the famous stairway to heaven parallel'ed by Jacob's ladder?

Utterance 268:372
"Horus takes him to his side, he purifies this Unas in the Jackal-lake (S zAb),
he cleans the ka of this Unas in the Lake of Dawn (S dA.tj),
he rubs down the flesh of the Ka of this Unas as well as his own,"

...a parallel to the annointing of Jesus with oil prior to his death?

utternace 269:379
"They come the ones who have risen up.
They come, the ones who have risen up. "

...the idea of bodily resurrection is not Jewish. So where did the Christians get it?

Utterance 269:382:
"That land into which Unas goes,
he will not thirst in it,
he will not hunger in it, eternally."

...where did they get the idea of an land of the afterlife with no thirst or hunger? That's not Jewish either.

utterance 301:448
Say to your father that Unas has given you your bread of eternity,
that he satisfied you with what is due to you.

...more parallels to the eucharist

utterance 301:451
Lo, Unas brings you your great left Eye as healer.
Receive it from the hand of Unas, being uninjured (wDA),
the water in it uninjured, its red (blood ?) is in it, uninjured,
its breathing is in it, uninjured!

...a parallel to the water mixed with blood from Jesus' pierced side?

Utterance 215:140
O Unas! Your messengers go, your heralds hurry to your father, to Atum.

...a possible parallel to the transfiguration?


There are many many more eyebrow raising passages in these tombs for anyone who wants to go read more at the site I referenced above.

Solitary Man

This is everything wrong with amateur "scholarship". There's nothing "eyebrow raising" in any of these fake parallels. These aren't even real parallels!