dockeen

"Jeffrey Dahmer justified his horrific actions by saying that once he believed in evolution he had no foundation on which to guide his behavior (I'm paraphrasing) other than the base--survival of the fittest. I stand by my claim."

A 10 sigma case is probably not a good data point. Crazy people are and do crazy things
even in religious society.

TedM

Yeah, probably. We can't really know. He, if I recall correctly, said he used to be a creationist but lost that belief, as an explanation for why his behavior changed.

fedupatheist

Not at all.

djrafikie

I think if jesus was proven not to exist, then God would also be proven not to exist and the bible would be proven incorrect.

I also think a world full of people who know this life is all they have, and therefore try to ensure they are living it to the fullest, would be an awesome world.

bobforapples

Yes, negatively! You have it backwards, it's society that's dragging christianity, kicking and screaming, into a modern ethical framework. One only has to look at the American south of the previous century to see how modern society had to pull "modern" christians out of a feudalistic morality

Ranting about non-obvious truths and pointing to bloody-minded religious documents snipped.

I tend to think that society prevents christians from falling back on the old testament which they've shown a remarkable willingness to do whenever they have the power in society. Even when they don't hold power, christians have been willing to take matters into their own hands as we've seen as recently as 50-60 years ago. And please don't tell me that those guys in the white sheets weren't "true christians (tm)", because they'd certainly disagree with you on that. For the moment society keeps christians well behaved, and I prefer it that way.

And christians are prevalent in society today, so why do you think they haven't adopted that attitude already? Christian ethics are certainly as flexible as everbody else, especially when dealing with non-christians or wrong-christians...you know, wrong church, wrong pew?

Yes, there is one standard, society's! That standard draws from many sources and is changing (I hope for the better) and anyone who violates society's standards will join that already large christian majority in society's jail system. And no, I don't think losing Jesus will cause most people to turn into raging sociopaths...maybe like all the atheists who became atheists when they lost their faith, they'll simply find more rational reasons to treat people as well as they'd like to be treated (and no, that "golden rule" isn't a christian exclusive!).

That's right...imply that all non-christians are cannibalistic mass-murderer wannabees. I certainly don't think all christians are white supremacist/ku klux klan members (your mileage may vary in the southern portion of the USA). Why must you suggest that losing one's faith must turn them into monsters? We do have some rousing examples of christian monsters if you want to play that game.:wave:

Maybe Dahmer is just a good example of what being raised by fundamentalist, creationist parents can result in?

Toto

This is getting off topic, but urban legend must be fought whenever it rears its head. Dahmer was not a moral creationist who lost his religion and then turned to murder. He became a born again Christian in prison and reframed his previous actions in terms of creationism mythology.

TFN insiderAlso here.

aa5874

But, you must admit that Jeffrey Dahmer may have died as a Jesus believer and asked Jesus to forgive his sins and is now in heaven. Those he killed may be in hell and perhaps did not get the chance to convert.

There are countries, like Japan where Christianity is not the major religion yet the crime statictics are much better than countries where Christian is practised by the majority.

The major religions of Japan are Shintoism and Buddhism.

Before the belief in Jesus, there were laws enacted in the Roman Empire to combat crime long BEFORE Jesus was believed to be a God and replaced all the previous mythical gods of the Empire.

TedM

Thanks for the correction. This is the part that I believe rings true and will apply to many people who lose their faith:

Those that think the world would be better off need to address this possible adverse response. Conscious action DOES follow belief, or lack thereof.

TedM

I do not agree with this belief as it narrowly defines what altruism is. I am caring for my mom these days because I love her. It isn't because I get appreciation or love back. It isn't because I expect anything back. It is because I want her to experience what she deserves, out of my love for her. I don't consider that to be a selfish act. It is honorable and as such the idea that there is no such thing as 'true altruism' flawed in some way.

TedM

I assume this is based on your observations. It may be true for the avg person, but those who do tremendous good in the world (like Mother Teresa) often have passion because of their faith--not because they are naturally 'loving people'.

Well, there is pretty good basis for such a selfish attitude. It's called survival of the fittest. No real love there unless it benefits you. There is not a motivation to benifit 'mankind' or society. Such ideals become nonsense. Justice doesn't happen in this world Doug. That's why the idea of an afterlife that somehow brings justice is an attractive and effective motivator to treat people in a loving way. Without it, not even justice matters, so people like Dahmer are fully justified in screwing over whoever they want to.

Let the barrage begin...