Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SkepticBoyLee · 08-13-2005, 09:50 PM

......as we know it. The concept of hell (sheol) Ive heard wasnt fully developed as we know it until the Gospels were written. Also it is said that Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else.

Thoughts?

Chris Weimer · 08-13-2005, 10:01 PM

The author of Matthew did.

judge · 08-13-2005, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

......as we know it. The concept of hell (sheol) Ive heard wasnt fully developed as we know it until the Gospels were written. Also it is said that Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else.

Thoughts?

The Aramaic of Luke's gospel makes it clear that Ghenna (hell) and sheol are two different things.

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-13-2005, 11:12 PM

Jesus talked about Gehenna, not Hell.

SkepticBoyLee · 08-13-2005, 11:50 PM

OK, Hellfire damnation, is that Jesus' (the Gospel writers) invention?

Is hellfire torture predominate prior to this in other beliefs?

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-14-2005, 12:07 AM

"Hellfire damnation," in the sense of eternal conscious torment, is not in the Gospels. Gehenna was a real valley in Jerusalem. It was used as a garbage pit and a disposal site for the carcasses of animals and sometimes humans (particularly criminals). People burned fires there on a more or less continuous basis to try to destroy the rotting carcasses and garbage. The valley was also believed to have been a site of human sacrifice by ancient Canaanites and so was considered to be forsaken by God. It was a literal firey pit which came to be a symbol for ignoble death. Eventually, there came to be a tradition that Gehenna would be a site for the destruction of sinners on judgement day. They were cast into the "eternal flames" to be annihilated, not to be tortured. The punishment was that they would be wiped out of existence while the righteous received eternal life )which was originally conceived as literal life in restored physical bodies).

SkepticBoyLee · 08-14-2005, 12:28 AM

Thanks for your response.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How is one simotaneously pnished everlasting and also annihilated?

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-14-2005, 12:35 AM

I have to get some sleep and I can go into more detail in the morning, but the word translated as "punishment" is more accurately translated as "penalty" or "judgement." It's a word for a legal penalty- a sentence. Basically, this verse is just referring to a penalty of eternal death for sinners.

Also, the word translated as "everlasting" doesn't necessarily mean eternal in Greek, but that's not really relevant since "punishment" doesn't have to mean torture.

08-13-2005, 09:50 PM	#1
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Did Jesus "invent" hell... ......as we know it. The concept of hell (sheol) Ive heard wasnt fully developed as we know it until the Gospels were written. Also it is said that Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else. Thoughts?

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08-13-2005, 10:01 PM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	The author of Matthew did.

08-13-2005, 11:12 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Jesus talked about Gehenna, not Hell.

08-13-2005, 11:50 PM	#5
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	OK, Hellfire damnation, is that Jesus' (the Gospel writers) invention? Is hellfire torture predominate prior to this in other beliefs?

08-14-2005, 12:07 AM	#6
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	"Hellfire damnation," in the sense of eternal conscious torment, is not in the Gospels. Gehenna was a real valley in Jerusalem. It was used as a garbage pit and a disposal site for the carcasses of animals and sometimes humans (particularly criminals). People burned fires there on a more or less continuous basis to try to destroy the rotting carcasses and garbage. The valley was also believed to have been a site of human sacrifice by ancient Canaanites and so was considered to be forsaken by God. It was a literal firey pit which came to be a symbol for ignoble death. Eventually, there came to be a tradition that Gehenna would be a site for the destruction of sinners on judgement day. They were cast into the "eternal flames" to be annihilated, not to be tortured. The punishment was that they would be wiped out of existence while the righteous received eternal life )which was originally conceived as literal life in restored physical bodies).

08-14-2005, 12:28 AM	#7
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Thanks for your response. Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. How is one simotaneously pnished everlasting and also annihilated?

08-14-2005, 12:35 AM	#8
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I have to get some sleep and I can go into more detail in the morning, but the word translated as "punishment" is more accurately translated as "penalty" or "judgement." It's a word for a legal penalty- a sentence. Basically, this verse is just referring to a penalty of eternal death for sinners. Also, the word translated as "everlasting" doesn't necessarily mean eternal in Greek, but that's not really relevant since "punishment" doesn't have to mean torture.

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