Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 02-13-2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Apart from the general improbability IMO of this suggestion

Thanks for making the response to this suggestion anyway Andrew.

IMO you are one of the members here that continually adds content to the discussion threads on many issues regardless of their probability or improbability and I wish (perhaps in vain) that others here (no names of course) might see the sense in doing the same.

Quote:

... we have not only the references to Christians but also the references to Christ (e.g. sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god).

I'm not sure what the original would be here if the letters originally dealt with Jews.

For the sake of the argument we could start with the god of Moses.

In regard to general improbabilities and probabilities, the suggestion that a 14th or 15th century academic came across a rare cache of letters including a letter exchange between a governor Pliny and a Roman Emperor Trajan where these two well known historical people were discussing Christians needs itself to be analysed. There are problems with it.

For example why didn't any Christian academic between the 2nd and the 14th century mention the existence of such a favourable citation to the historical existence of early Christians? I have seen answers to this question which make an appeal to the criterion of embarrassment and I don't want to go there.

There are references to the Trajan Pliny correspondence in Tertullian and Eusebius. Eusebius on Pliny

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 02-13-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There are references to the Trajan Pliny correspondence in Tertullian and Eusebius. Eusebius on Pliny

Andrew Criddle

Both Eusebius and Tertullian also show that the Pliny letters made no mention of Jesus.

You very well know that not all Christians in antiquity worshiped Jesus, the Son of God, born of a Holy Ghost.

From the Pliny letter itself there is no indication that Pliny the younger had ever heard of Jesus or was aware that some Chritians worshiped a Son of God from Nazareth.

aa5874 · 02-13-2013, 08:45 PM

It must be exposed that all persons called Christians in antiquity were not of the Jesus cult.

It is for that very reason why there are writings AGAINST the so-called 'heretics'.

It would also appear that Church writers abused the ambiguity and made claims about some Christians as if they were of the Jesus cult when they were NOT.

We have writings attributed to Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Jerome, Ephrem and others that show that there were Christians who were NOT of the Jesus cult.

It is imperative that one understands that the Geography of Christianity and the Geography of the Jesus cult are not the same.

Once there were heretics in antiquity then the term Christian without any additional detail cannot be assumed to be about the Jesus cult Christians.

There may have been Christians long before the Jesus cult was started but in any event the Jesus cult of Christians did not impact the Geography of the ancient world until the 2nd century.

Lucian of Samosata, One of the first Non-Apologetic sources to mention Christians who worshiped a crucified man placed the Jesus cult Christians on the MAP in Palestine in the 2nd century .

mountainman · 02-13-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I agree with you that Mark was writing fiction, but agree with rlogan that the writer seems to be a foreigner unfamiliar with the territory.

I also agree "Mark" may have screwed up on geography.

rlogan have you looked to see whether other people have noticed this specific instance of a screw up with the geography? Usually these sorts of paradoxes have -each of them - a sedimentary history of notice.

mountainman · 02-13-2013, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

For example why didn't any Christian academic between the 2nd and the 14th century mention the existence of such a favourable citation to the historical existence of early Christians? I have seen answers to this question which make an appeal to the criterion of embarrassment and I don't want to go there.

There are references to the Trajan Pliny correspondence in Tertullian and Eusebius. Eusebius on Pliny

Thanks for correcting my mistake Andrew. You demonstrate that the Pliny citation was mentioned by Eusebius who cites Tertullian and states "We have taken our account from the Latin Apology of Tertullian"..

When I wrote the above I was thinking of the other 15th century Christian reference in Tacitus. Anyway, back to the Pliny-Trajan letter exchange.

I was considering whether the Plny-Trajan correspondence may have originally mentioned the Jews instead of the Christians on account of other historical references that suggest Trajan was a very ruthless Emperor against the Jews: he apparently had 2000 Jews of the city of Emaus crucified. The idea is that Pliny was wanting to know how severe Trajan wanted him to be on this Jewish problem c.110-111 CE.

Here is what Eusebius says in his account taken from Tertullian.

In the following I have replaced Christians with Jews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius CHURCH HISTORY

Chapter XXXIII.—Trajan forbids the Christians Jews to be sought after.

1. So great a persecution was at that time opened against us (Jews) in many places that Plinius Secundus, one of the most noted of governors, being disturbed by the great number of martyrs, communicated with the emperor concerning the multitude of those that were put to death for their faith.

At the same time, he informed him in his communication that he had not heard of their doing anything profane or contrary to the laws,—except that they arose at dawn and sang hymns to Christ Moses as a God; but that they renounced adultery and murder and like criminal offenses, and did all things in accordance with the laws.

2. In reply to this Trajan made the following decree: that the race of Christians Jews should not be sought after, but when found should be punished. On account of this the persecution which had threatened to be a most terrible one was to a certain degree checked, but there were still left plenty of pretexts for those who wished to do us harm. Sometimes the people, sometimes the rulers in various places, would lay plots against us, so that, although no great persecutions took place, local persecutions were nevertheless going on in particular provinces, and many of the faithful endured martyrdom in various forms.

3. We have taken our account from the Latin Apology of Tertullian which we mentioned above. The translation runs as follows: “And indeed we have found that search for us has been forbidden. For when Plinius Secundus, the governor of a province, had condemned certain Christians Jews and deprived them of their dignity, he was confounded by the multitude, and was uncertain what further course to pursue. He therefore communicated with Trajan the emperor, informing him that, aside from their unwillingness to sacrifice, he had found no impiety in them.

4. And he reported this also, that the Christians Jews arose early in the morning and sang hymns unto Christ Moses as a God, and for the purpose of preserving their discipline forbade murder, adultery, avarice, robbery, and the like. In reply to this Trajan wrote that the race of Christians Jews should not be sought after, but when found should be punished.” Such were the events which took place at that time.

That Trajan severely persecuted the Jews - a multitude were put to death - is corroborated in the Roman historian – Florus Quintilius Varus Florus "Epitome of Roman History" – II, 88.

When the "nation of Christians" in Pliny/Trajan is substituted with the "nation of Jews", the letter makes quite reasonable sense.

NOTE: this is just for the sake of the speculative argument.

Sorry about the tangentiation rlogan. If I have time I will try and find other earlier identifications of this specific Mark geography mistake.

aa5874 · 02-13-2013, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

That Trajan severely persecuted the Jews - a multitude were put to death - is corroborated in the Roman historian – Florus Quintilius Varus Florus "Epitome of Roman History" – II, 88.

When the "nation of Christians" in Pliny/Trajan is substituted with the "nation of Jews", the letter makes quite reasonable sense.

NOTE: this is just for the sake of the speculative argument.

Speculation is not directly related to reason. Once you admit you are speculating then then your substitutions cannot be considered resonable.

rlogan · 02-14-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

rlogan have you looked to see whether other people have noticed this specific instance of a screw up with the geography? Usually these sorts of paradoxes have -each of them - a sedimentary history of notice.

It has been mentioned before on these boards, and google will give you discussions of it, but my endeavor here is to look myself, with others, at good maps to see just exactly how bad this geography is. Evaluate it independently. There are others too, but I want to use good maps for illustration before posting them.

On the face of it I am struck by how appalling this one is. The maps make it crystal clear that neither the writer nor the audience is from the region. You don't have to be literate to know how bad Mark's Geography is, if you are from there. The proposed route would add DAYS of hard travel on foot to a journey.

These place-names would be in the Greek Septuagint and any other literary resources like Josephus' works that an author could weave together in a narrative. That's all you need if you are writing to a Greek audience distant from Galilee.

rlogan · 02-14-2013, 11:32 AM

Quote:

And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 5:2And when he was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 5:3who had his dwelling in the tombs: and no man could any more bind him, no, not with a chain; 5:4because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been rent asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: and no man had strength to tame him. 5:5And always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones. 5:6And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him; 5:7and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not. 5:8For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man. 5:9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many. 5:10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 5:11Now there was there on the mountain side a great herd of swine feeding. 5:12And they besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 5:13And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, in number about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea

Gerasa is 30 miles from the Sea of Galillee. Shown as the southern circle. Matthew apparently tries to correct this mistake of Mark by using the city of Gadera in the story instead, but that is still six miles from the Sea. It is physically impossible to travel down a steep hillside from either place into the sea.

Growing up in farm country, two thousand pigs is incredible in scale. Just imagine two thousand people making their way from one place to another - it's stupendous.

Here again the geography isn't just a little bit off - it is a scale of error that points to both writer and audience being far, far away from this region and the author mining place-names from other literature that he cobbles together for a narrative.

Clivedurdle · 02-14-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

As for the episode of the Gadarene swine-in which demons leave a Gadara demoniac at Jesus’ bidding and then enter into a herd of 2,000 swine, which rush wildly into the lake and drown-Josephus recounts the Roman campaign in which Vespasian marched against Gadara. In the same way that the demons were concentrated in one demoniac, Josephus describes the faults of all the rebels being concentrated in the one head of the rebel leader John. Then, rushing about “like the wildest of wild beasts,” the 2000 rebels rushed over the cliff and drowned.

http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/2011/...y-john-hudson/

rlogan · 02-14-2013, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

As for the episode of the Gadarene swine-in which demons leave a Gadara demoniac at Jesus’ bidding and then enter into a herd of 2,000 swine, which rush wildly into the lake and drown-Josephus recounts the Roman campaign in which Vespasian marched against Gadara. In the same way that the demons were concentrated in one demoniac, Josephus describes the faults of all the rebels being concentrated in the one head of the rebel leader John. Then, rushing about “like the wildest of wild beasts,” the 2000 rebels rushed over the cliff and drowned.

http://caesarsmessiah.com/blog/2011/...y-john-hudson/

Oh thanks for that. I have heard of that reference before, and it does have the look of a literary license being taken, doesn't it? I think we need to be careful insomuch as Mark's reference is to Gerasa. But it is tantalizing.

Since the source is not local, the writings of Josephus do look attractive on many grounds, not just this one. Had Josephus published maps along with his narrative then we would not see these glaring errors.

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02-13-2013, 08:45 PM	#63
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It must be exposed that all persons called Christians in antiquity were not of the Jesus cult. It is for that very reason why there are writings AGAINST the so-called 'heretics'. It would also appear that Church writers abused the ambiguity and made claims about some Christians as if they were of the Jesus cult when they were NOT. We have writings attributed to Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, Jerome, Ephrem and others that show that there were Christians who were NOT of the Jesus cult. It is imperative that one understands that the Geography of Christianity and the Geography of the Jesus cult are not the same. Once there were heretics in antiquity then the term Christian without any additional detail cannot be assumed to be about the Jesus cult Christians. There may have been Christians long before the Jesus cult was started but in any event the Jesus cult of Christians did not impact the Geography of the ancient world until the 2nd century. Lucian of Samosata, One of the first Non-Apologetic sources to mention Christians who worshiped a crucified man placed the Jesus cult Christians on the MAP in Palestine in the 2nd century .

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