Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoeL

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Maybe the way I phrased it was wrong

There, that wasn't so hard now was it?

No, it wasn't hard.. You will find out along my stay in here.. when I'm wrong I admit it. I have nothing to gain by lying to anyone, especially to atheists. Maybe I should have choosen better words so you guys understand me. I see a photo of a little kid playing in the dirt where the river once flowed, and I claim 'the river is dried up'. You can literally take that two different ways.

Keith&Co,

Turkey has agreed to release water into the Euphrates for one month, and that's it. So, what happens after that? Back to square one? It sounds like your plan won't work out too well. This will be the start of a major war.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ziUQcNToKyM_tw

spamandham · 09-22-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The Euphrates River has not dried up.

It's on it's way.. just watch and see..

Suppose you're right and the river does actually dry up. Is the wetness of the river what is currently stopping the "kings from the East"? Afterall, in Revelation, the *reason* the Euphrates is dried up is to make way for the kings from the East.

In case you hadn't noticed, modern warfare is not hindered in the least by rivers, the way it was when Revelation was written.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I've said that all along. Iran will be the spark to Armageddon.

1. The Euphrates river is dwindling.
2. Iran is building a doomsday nuclear bomb for Israel.
3. President Barack Obama is trying to divide the State of Israel.
4. Russia is supplying Iran with weapons of Mass destruction.
5. Israel shall be reborn as a Nation (and the end shall come).

In relation to topic (4). Read the story about Gog-Magog. The Bible says; The mighty North will supply Persia with weapons for Armageddon.

The Mighty North = Russia. Conclusion? Russia is North of Israel.

Ancient Persia is now called Iran.

Do the math. It's all beginning to make perfect sense.

It's always entertaining to watch christians who know nothing about the texts they try to cite package them to fulfill their own desires.

Incidentally,

Gog, is a known figure, Gyges, the Lydian king known in the records of Asshurbanipal as Gugu Mat-Gugu [the land of Gugu], ie Gog of Magog. Lydia was in western Anatolia and Gyges was politically active in eastern Anatolia.
Tubal was the ancient realm of Tabal where Anatolia met Syria.
Meshech was Mushki another Anatolian realm. Mita (ie Midas) was the famous king known also from Assyrian records.
Togarmah was Til-Garimmu the early Armenian realm in eastern Anatolia.
Gomer was the descriptive name of the Cimmerians with whom Gyges was at war and which ravaged much of Anatolia.

All datable to a period prior to the fall of Assyria. Gog is a well-known and powerful ruler of the period who played in the league of Egypt and Assyria. The writer of Ezekiel had come into contact with this information and re-elaborated it into a vision, which christians take to be what they insist is prophecy. What this means is that christians, ignorant of the context of the literature they are using reinterpret it for tendentious purposes. Modern American christian literalists tend to convert it into some world war scenario based on Russians and Iranians, when the original plainly had nothing to do with either, as can be seen in the limited scope of the material, originally involving only Anatolia, which is in the far north for Israel.

(I've just read the wonderfully awful

War of Ezekiel 38-39. If any infidel want to see the warped mind at work, that's a good source.)

spin

I appreciate your time and effort, but we are talking about gog-magog in the Book of Revelation, not Ezekiel.

Revelation 20:8 also speaks of "Gog and Magog." Here, however, the reference is not to an individual commander, or ruler. Both names are shown to apply to "those nations in the four corners of the earth" who allow themselves to be misled by Satan after he is released from the symbolic "abyss". They advance "over the breadth of the earth" to encircle "the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city." This comes after the Millennial Rule over earth by Christ Jesus has reached its completion.

The use of the names "Gog and Magog" evidently serves to emphasize certain similarities between this post-Millennial situation and that of the earlier assault (prior to Satan's being abyssed.) Both in Ezekiel and Revelation, the opposers are numerous; the attack is the result of a widespread conspiracy and is directed against God's servants when they enjoy great prosperity.

Source(s); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Suppose you're right and the river does actually dry up. Is the wetness of the river what is currently stopping the "kings from the East"? Afterall, in Revelation, the *reason* the Euphrates is dried up is to make way for the kings from the East.

You have to take into consideration the time this was written. John witnessed the visions, but he couldn't describe them into words.

Quote:

In case you hadn't noticed, modern warfare is not hindered in the least by rivers, the way it was when Revelation was written.

I think I have to disagree with you on this. There are 3rd world countries in the Middle East that do not have the modern technology to send a missile to Israel. Iran is a very powerful country, and yet, they do not have a missile that could strike Israel. Well, not yet anyway. Russia is helping them defeat this. As foretold thousands of years ago.

Afghanistan does not have the technology to send a missile to the U.S, so they recruit 19 suicide bombers, and use an airplane as a guided missile.

So, all in all, I would have to say the oceans and the rivers are a great force.

spamandham · 09-22-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I appreciate your time and effort, but we are talking about gog-magog in the Book of Revelation, not Ezekiel.

Oh now we see how it works. When a real historical place is mentioned in Ezekiel, it refers to that real historical place. But when the same place is mentioned in Revelation, it does not, because that real historical place no longer exists, therefor it must be allegory.

Allegory for what though? Well it says "north", and even though the land mentioned is a allegory 'North' must not be, and the only really nasty place I can think of North of Israel is the USSR....I mean, Russia. Therefor Magog is Russia.

This is pure unadulterated insanity.

Why do you dismiss portions as allegorical, but insist the rest is literal? That isn't the way writers of allegory write. If Magog is allegorical, then so is "North", and really so is everything else in Revelation.

Your Christian cohorts have turned Revelation into a cartoonish fantasy. If there is a god involved in the writing of that book, he's probably really pissed at the rampant nonsense you people have created.

premjan · 09-22-2009, 07:18 AM

There are a lot of rivers that are drying up. It is indeed a sign of the end of something - complacency about water probably.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086879.html

spin · 09-22-2009, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It's always entertaining to watch christians who know nothing about the texts they try to cite package them to fulfill their own desires.

Incidentally,

Gog, is a known figure, Gyges, the Lydian king known in the records of Asshurbanipal as Gugu Mat-Gugu [the land of Gugu], ie Gog of Magog. Lydia was in western Anatolia and Gyges was politically active in eastern Anatolia.
Tubal was the ancient realm of Tabal where Anatolia met Syria.
Meshech was Mushki another Anatolian realm. Mita (ie Midas) was the famous king known also from Assyrian records.
Togarmah was Til-Garimmu the early Armenian realm in eastern Anatolia.
Gomer was the descriptive name of the Cimmerians with whom Gyges was at war and which ravaged much of Anatolia.

All datable to a period prior to the fall of Assyria. Gog is a well-known and powerful ruler of the period who played in the league of Egypt and Assyria. The writer of Ezekiel had come into contact with this information and re-elaborated it into a vision, which christians take to be what they insist is prophecy. What this means is that christians, ignorant of the context of the literature they are using reinterpret it for tendentious purposes. Modern American christian literalists tend to convert it into some world war scenario based on Russians and Iranians, when the original plainly had nothing to do with either, as can be seen in the limited scope of the material, originally involving only Anatolia, which is in the far north for Israel.

(I've just read the wonderfully awful

War of Ezekiel 38-39. If any infidel want to see the warped mind at work, that's a good source.)

I appreciate your time and effort, but we are talking about gog-magog in the Book of Revelation, not Ezekiel.

Revelation 20:8 also speaks of "Gog and Magog."

I was well aware of the incomprehension of the writer of Revelation in regard to Gog and Magog from the Ezekiel source which he was reworking. It's like the gospel writer who misinterprets Isaiah's prophecy (7:14) at the time of Ahaz and resets as the birth of Jesus ("a young woman is with child and shall bear a child and shall name him Immanuel").

You should start with the sources of your sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Here, however, the reference is not to an individual commander, or ruler. Both names are shown to apply to "those nations in the four corners of the earth" who allow themselves to be misled by Satan after he is released from the symbolic "abyss". They advance "over the breadth of the earth" to encircle "the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city." This comes after the Millennial Rule over earth by Christ Jesus has reached its completion.

Do you treely and rooly see Russia and Iran lasting the millenium? How long did Britain rule the seas? Spain dominate Europe?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The use of the names "Gog and Magog" evidently serves to emphasize certain similarities between this post-Millennial situation and that of the earlier assault (prior to Satan's being abyssed.) Both in Ezekiel and Revelation, the opposers are numerous; the attack is the result of a widespread conspiracy and is directed against God's servants when they enjoy great prosperity.

Source(s); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

I'll have to rewrite this page and put some reason behind it.

spin

And while we're on the subject of Gog, How about Agog?

spamandham · 09-22-2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Suppose you're right and the river does actually dry up. Is the wetness of the river what is currently stopping the "kings from the East"? Afterall, in Revelation, the *reason* the Euphrates is dried up is to make way for the kings from the East.

You have to take into consideration the time this was written. John witnessed the visions, but he couldn't describe them into words.

Huh? Because he couldn't describe that rivers would not stop warriors in the last days, therefor he had to write that the river would dry up...and since he wrote it, god is drying up the river, even though it's superfluous?

I'm afraid the disease may be terminal.

Quote:

In case you hadn't noticed, modern warfare is not hindered in the least by rivers, the way it was when Revelation was written.

I think I have to disagree with you on this. There are 3rd world countries in the Middle East that do not have the modern technology to send a missile to Israel. Iran is a very powerful country, and yet, they do not have a missile that could strike Israel.

In spite of the fact that Iran has plenty of missiles that could reach Israel, missiles are not the only instruments of war that can cross rivers. There are these brand new devices called boats and bridges that are a matter of coarse in modern warfare, not to mentions jets and helicopters. Modern warfare is not impeded in any significant way by rivers, and Iran's military is more than capable of attacking across even a flooded Euphrates.

Quote:

So, all in all, I would have to say the oceans and the rivers are a great force.

We're talking specifically about the Euphrates, not the Atlantic ocean, which incidentally, is not drying up.

premjan · 09-22-2009, 07:42 AM

Russia dates from the ninth century or so - it is a young country. Persia was around in biblical times.

Dark Virtue · 09-22-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I appreciate your time and effort, but we are talking about gog-magog in the Book of Revelation, not Ezekiel.

Oh now we see how it works. When a real historical place is mentioned in Ezekiel, it refers to that real historical place. But when the same place is mentioned in Revelation, it does not, because that real historical place no longer exists, therefor it must be allegory.

Allegory for what though? Well it says "north", and even though the land mentioned is a allegory 'North' must not be, and the only really nasty place I can think of North of Israel is the USSR....I mean, Russia. Therefor Magog is Russia.

This is pure unadulterated insanity.

Why do you dismiss portions as allegorical, but insist the rest is literal? That isn't the way writers of allegory write. If Magog is allegorical, then so is "North", and really so is everything else in Revelation.

Your Christian cohorts have turned Revelation into a cartoonish fantasy. If there is a god involved in the writing of that book, he's probably really pissed at the rampant nonsense you people have created.

This is important, IBIH.

How do you know what's allegorical and what is literal?

What tools are you using to figure this out?

And please, please, please don't say it's the Holy Spirit and only "true" Christians can interpret the Bible correctly.

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09-22-2009, 07:18 AM	#86
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	There are a lot of rivers that are drying up. It is indeed a sign of the end of something - complacency about water probably. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086879.html

09-22-2009, 07:42 AM	#89
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Russia dates from the ninth century or so - it is a young country. Persia was around in biblical times.

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