Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

WILLOWTREE

Your issue is wholly supported by rhetoric.

The Bible establishes from the outset that the good will always suffer because of the bad: we inherited original sin from Adam and Eve.

Your proposition also suffers from extreme ignorance about God.

Righteousness = whatever God does or says.

Whatever God does is righteous.

Why ?

Because nobody can put Him in His place.

Ray

Mageth

In other words, God killed unborn Children at Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre because he can get away with it? And it's "righteous" simply because he can do it and get away with it?

That's what you're saying, WILLOWTREE.

Johnny Skeptic

What evidence do you have that God is not an evil God who is masquerading as a good God and plans to send everyone to hell?
Mark 13:22 says "And false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Why do you assume that the elect cannot be deceived? 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 say "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." If God is evil, and if he is omnipotent and omniscient, he could easily duplicate anything that is attributed to the God of the Bible.

The only way that skeptics can fairly be held accountable for rejecting the God of the Bible is if they know that he exists and still reject him. If God exists, if he clearly revealed himself to everyone, surely some skeptics would become Christians. Regarding skeptics who would become Christians if God clearly revealed himself to everyone, that would prove that they did not actually reject God, and that they deserve to go to heaven.

general_koffi

<personal comments deleted>

Anyway, if a God did annihilate Sodom, Gomorrah and Tyre, then He did it as an act of incredible cruelty and malice. Yes, the OT God is evil - very evil.

Johnny Skeptic

Or at best, amoral.

Anat

The apologetics that paints God the nicest was that once he decided to bring about one of those massive disasters to punish the sins of a community he prevented any conceptions for several years such that by the time disaster hit everyone in the community was old enough to have sinned hirself. So if you notice a sudden halt in births, BEWARE!!!

Of course this does not match what we observe in present day disasters but since when is that a problem for apologists?

As for biblical support for the scenario - none, but IIRC the Bible doesn't mention explicitly that children were in the flood or Sodom. Though it does mention suffering and death of children in other situations, such as the siege of Samaria.

hatsoff

Why you keep bringing this up I'll never know. If that's what you want to discuss, make a thread about it, and don't do it under the guise of another topic.

It's a ridiculous notion, anyway. No Christian is going to suddenly say, "My gosh, he's right!" and de-convert. This is mostly because they're so rigid in their beliefs, but also because your argument doesn't pan out the way you'd like it to.

noah

What, and your position is not? Substantiate just one of your claims here.

And in which banana republic are you such a model citizen?

noah

Actually, it doesn't Willow. There is no basis for the concept of Origianl Sin in the Jewish texts. In fact, if we read the Jewish texts (which I recommend you do sometime) we find just the opposite.

(Please note, in all cases, no mention of JC)

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

Paul of course, is the architect of this Original Sin nonsense but you do have to wonder whether he had ever read the relevant texts in the bible. Paul makes this claim:
However...

Gen. 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" Please note that Job was not saved by JC, by belief in a human blood sacrifice, but rather his unswerving obedience to god.

And please note, from the New Testament-Luke 1:5-6 Not only was Paul ignorant of scripture, he was, in fact, downright deceptive. Witness his manipulation of Jewish scripture as he attmpts to push his doctrine of Original Sin
In Romans 10:8 Paul deliberately changes the wording of deuteronmy 30:14, one of those pesky Jewish verses that say you can be righteous and faithful to god by obeying the law:
Here's what Deuteronomy 30:14 actually says:
In fact the Jewish scripture makes clear in many places that the law, and not faith in a human blood sacrifice is the key to salvation. For example,
Deut 6:2,5,24-25
That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Ezekiel 18:27, again no mention of JC:
...when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

From Outreach Judaism Paul, however, should have been tipped off that his teachings on original sin were misguided and that his broad-brushed characterization of humanity was erroneous. In fact, the Jewish scriptures repeatedly praised numerous men of God for their unwavering righteousness. For example, the Bible declared that men like Calev (Numbers 14:24) and King Josiah (II Kings 22:2) were faithful throughout their extraordinary lives. Moreover, because of their devotion to their Creator, Abraham and Daniel were the objects of the Almighty’s warm affection as He tenderly referred to Abraham as “My friend,� (Isaiah 41:8) and Daniel, “beloved.� (Daniel 9:23; 10:11; 10:19) These extraordinary people did not merit these remarkable superlatives because they believed in Jesus or depended on a blood atonement; but rather, it was their devotion to God and unyielding obedience to His Torah that shaped their lives.

In fact, if you read the garden of Eden story you will find almost no basis at all for the doctrine of Original Sin.