Robert_Plant

Now redirect me with one of them, what do ya call um...links if there is another thread addressing this. My father is a born again (got him sober at least) and had on a christian radio program I believe called "The Bible Answer Man" and a caller asked about the fall.

I think the man had asked, "Now, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they knew between right and wrong before eating the fruit so eating it didn't illuminate them to that, they already could actually see with there eyes so eating didn't open them thus making them ashamed, and they knew that it was NOT going to be good disobeying God whom they "personally" knew."

And the answer man agreed at the various points and was like, "Yes, so your question...". And if my memory has been serving this post correctly the caller was wondering if you believe in the bible more as moral tales and metaphor that the fall makes sense enough:huh: but that if you literally believe in scripture and that there was a garden of eden with Adam and Eve that they were the dumbest people (whom we all have to thank for our seperation from God) ever.

And that thought stuck in my mind. If you were the first human being ever and you talked to God and saw God and KNEW, freaking KNEW you were the first pitch thrown on "His greatest creation" and, you know, of course you wouldn't let some serpent trick you. You'd tell Eve to get that damn apple away from you and lets party elsewhere in ultimate paradise since this is Eden and all.

And I know if you believe you don't question it and believe that yes, they were that stupid and screwed it all up and caused that horrible problem called sin which we all have naturally because of them.

Correct any misinformation or remembering I've done in this post (jeez, its why I typed it all). Did they already understand that disobeying that guy who says he made them all their lush surrondings should be the one thing they shouldn't do? Or are Adam and Eve really the biggest morons? I mean, if you're the first and you see God and YOU KNOW its him how could you? It was made so clear before, just don't eat from that one tree and its a fiesta forever with the beams and the tower (where are my dark tower/roland/stephen king fans?)

So, its number one "my bad" of all time, great story to kick off the bible or the usual consensus.

Dark Virtue

I wouldn't say there were dumb or stupid.

Their intelligence wasn't their problem, it was their wisdom.

They may have had adult bodies, but they were essentially children in mind and spirit.

The REAL question is why God let the Serpent into the Garden in the first place. The bible says the serpent was the most crafty of all animals that God created. Uh...so WHY did he let him into the freakin' Garden?! Being omniscient, God knew what would happen, but did NOTHING to ensure that it wouldn't. Hence, my belief (assuming that God, the bible, et al are actually real) is that God wanted/needed/facilitated the Fall of Man. That can be the ONLY sound, logical explanation.

Any thoughts on that?

Diogenes the Cynic

Adam and Eve didn't know right from wrong before they ate the fruit. That was the whole point of the fruit. It was the tree of knowledge. God lied to them and told them they would die but the snake told them the truth -- that the fruit would let them know right from wrong and be like God.

So there's a paradox. Eating the fruit couldn't have been wrong because the fruit itself was what made them know the difference between right and wrong.

Also, the serpent didn't trick them. Everything he told them was true. It was God who lied to them.

Tigers!

The serpent did lie. He told them that they would not die but they did die later.
Adam & Eve experienced alienation between themselves, the serpent didn't tell them about that.
They experienced alienation from God, they hid from him. The serpent didn't tell them about that.
They had to work harder for a living, the serpent didn't tell them about that.

Diogenes the Cynic

This is specious. The fruit didn't kill them and more to the point, there was also a tree of life which God took away so they couldn't become immortal. That means they were ALREADY mortal before they ate from the tree of knowledge. They would have died eventually even if they hadn't eaten the fruit. The fruit did not cause them to be mortal and God was lying when he said it would kill them.
Where are you getting that? It's not from the text.
They hid because they were embarrassed about being naked, not because they felt "alienated from God."
That was God's decision, not the serpent's. The serpent told them nothing that wasn't true. It wasn't the serpent's fault if God decided to be a dick about it and punish them for something they couldn't have known was wrong. You're also assuming the snake had some magical ability to predict the future. Why do you assume that?

Kosh

Well, to quote SOME singer...

"And as it was, then again it shall be"....

The point being, maybe it was an allegory about how stupid people can be.

Dean Anderson

This has made me think of a wierd point...

P1) When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they became able to recognise Good and Evil.

P2) They then saw that they were naked, and for the first time realised that this was wrong and were therefore ashamed and hid themselves.

C1) Therefore wandering around openly naked is wrong/sin/evil.

P3) God does not alter what is good and evil on a whim.

C2) Therefore, Adam and Eve were sinning right from the start, but merely didn't know it because God was witholding from them the ability to recognise sin when they saw it.

Robert_Plant

Thanks for the answers (I gotta get online more). Its mostly what I think; its a great allegory and lesson but hard to literally believe.

rlogan

How is it a great lesson?

I don't see anyone here offering that, except perhaps Diogenes in the respect that the "lesson" is that the "Holy Man" was the liar.

Isn't the most basic "lesson" that we are all bad because someone else screwed up thousands of years ago?

How is punishing the innocent a great lesson?

FreezBee

It's a great lesson to the nocents (the in-innocents) so they know how to punish the innocents themselves.

- FreezBee