capnkirk

Almost universally Xtians have held that God made humans in his own image, and that humans were therefore implicitly his highest creation. Just as universally, Xtians claim that Xtianity is MONOTHEISTIC. The time, energy, and tortured logic required to reach the doctrine of the Trinity to reconcile Christ's nature within monotheism testifies to the centrality of the monotheistic concept.

So, how can angels and demons (armed with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal man) be reconciled within this belief structure? They seemingly have to violate one or the other of these central tenets.

spin

Angels be whatchoo call "messengers", like. An' vere job be to do God's bidding, like lackeys, like. Vey are sorta like go-betweens between God an' va resta da worwd, like. Vey 'aven got freee-wiw, ya know. Vey gotta do wot veyz tohwd, like. In works like Jubilees de angels were created before anyfing ehws ta be lackeys. Wehw, summa vem gotta bit sick a bein' lackeys and vey decided to try out all va good stuff wot Adam's lot got, like. Wehw, vat was worse van eatin' an 'atfullov apples, 'cause ven God kicked'em out, so vey got neiver wot vey 'ad nor wot va yumans 'ad eiver, like. Sooo, ya can imagine vey were pretty pissed off over ve whole affair, so vey vowed to get veir own way and not do wot God wanned'em ta do. Vat's sorta how vey became demons, like. An' God knowing wot vey would do before 'and couldn't give a tinker's cuss, ef you get my drift. Sooo, angels be lackeys an' demons be unemployed lackeys. Yumans be wot it's aw about, like. Vey be vee apex of creation. An' so wot if vee angels 'ave wonderfuw abilities: vey can't even *uck around in veir spare time. 'Ave I answered you?


nips

(Remember, speaker has problems saying "l" after vowels, substituting "w", for example, "world" becomes "worwd", and second "w" must be pronounced.)

capnkirk

nipS,

"Make's da' skwirmin' over da' Trinitititiy seem like nuttin'." (Fred Flintstone)

I was hoping to get a little more articulate response.....

spin

Perhaps you could be a little more articulate in the query. I hopefully conveyed what the standard understanding of the position of angels and demons is for at least some xians. They are considered to be appropriate servants for God's intervention in the world or those who've lost the job. Adam's breed is not servile. What else do you want to know?


spin

capnkirk

It all seems to hinge on what constitutes a "deity", and I haven't found a definition that would specifically exclude angels, demons and the like. I am familiar with the Elohim and Cherubim of Genesis, but they don't bear much resemblance to, say, the angels in the Nativity tale.

Another example: If angel's lack of free will and ultimate submission precludes their divinity, and preserves the monotheistic nature of Xtianity...that comes dangerously close to allowing the Greek pantheon to be called monotheistic because all the other "gods" were necessarily subservient to Zeus, the only remaining difference being the issue of free-will.

spin

What about the various angels of the Lord? Jacob fought with one. Lot got visited by one. You'll find'em all over the place doing this and that.

The other gods didn't exist just to do the bidding of Zeus. I still haven't found your wavelength.


spin

capnkirk

OK, let's start with the question: What are the specific attributes that separate a "god" from a "demigod" from a "mortal"? IOW, when studying a religion, how does one label some particular entity...either in concurrence with or in disagreement with the practitioners of that religion? There has to be a better standard than "because they call it a god", so what is it?

Then we can apply it to Xtian angels and demons and see wha' happens.

Magus55

There are different ranks of angels. Cherubim just happen to be one type of angel. And angels aren't anywhere near divine, so what does that have to do with Monotheism? Angels are just supernatural messengers. They are above humans, but way below God.

Magus55

Well, we could start with transcendence. God is transcendent (referring to His omni abilities), angels and demons aren't. Angels are creations, God isn't. God has sovereignty, Angels don't.

Doctor X

Difficult question to answer.

The easy answer is that the polytheism has progress to modern day where you have a Big Daddy who is all-power and loves you and smites you, with some pouncy lesser being about him.

How did we get there?

It seems by comparison to other religions that there has always been levels of gods and gods have moved up and down. Even in Greek religion, there were lower daemons and what we call demigods and the like. Believe Cross, and YHWH was a verb attached to a god title.

Right, in the OT we have some personification of powers. YHWH has a power that walks about. There is a Destroyer that he sends out in Exodus and in Kings. Who is that? We have discussed "a satan" and "the Satan."

The bene elohim--"sons of the gods"--implies to me lesser dieties. Methinks as monotheism became the claim--rather than a polytheism with "Big Daddy Bigger than Everyone Else"--these were demoted and reinterpreted as "angels."

We also have some indication that other gods were worshipped--possibly Baal and "Mrs. YHWH"--Asherah.

So . . . clear now . . . okay . . . it is a funny development. You start with a very humanlike deity who does everything with some minions--good, evil, smiting, and stuff. This becomes upseting so an "evil" element--"a stumbling block" or a satan becomes "promoted" to an entity--"the Satan." Now it is "the Satan" who does evil rather than YHWH.

Over time, this becomes a way to "solve" the Problem of Evil/Bad Karma.

Both have "helpers"--what might have been conceived as lesser deities once. In "modern times" that expouse monotheism "there can be only one . . . why do I have a Scotish accent if I am Spanish?" So we cannot have "demigods" or "lesser deities"--or even "sons." So they become "helpers."

--J.D.