Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EmmaZunz · 03-25-2012, 12:06 PM

"There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices" and when it dies, a worm feasts on its rotting flesh and turns into a new phoenix!

Clement gives this phoenix as proof of the reality of resurrection in chap. 25 of 1 Clement.

Ovid also connects frankincense and myrhh with the phoenix.

The phoenix was noted in ancient times for dying and in a way reproducing itself.

Now we know why Matthew chose frankincense and myrhh along with gold as the gifts of the wise men.

Another piece of the puzzle.

ApostateAbe · 03-25-2012, 03:19 PM

I think that is a good guess. Frankincense and myrrh were substances used in burial. Maybe Matthew borrowed from the myth of the phoenix.

mountainman · 03-25-2012, 11:11 PM

So many borrowings it makes one think if there is anything not borrowed.

sotto voce · 03-26-2012, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

So many borrowings it makes one think if there is anything not borrowed.

So the phoenix motif could have been developed from the Bible.

mountainman · 03-26-2012, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

So many borrowings it makes one think if there is anything not borrowed.

So the phoenix motif could have been developed from the Bible.

I wasn't aware that Jesus was cremated.

sotto voce · 03-26-2012, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

So many borrowings it makes one think if there is anything not borrowed.

So the phoenix motif could have been developed from the Bible.

I wasn't aware that Jesus was cremated.

Good point. Evidently Matthew missed a trick, here.

But are you aware of an Old Testament?

ecco · 03-26-2012, 09:04 AM

Clement Chapter 25:

Quote:

And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

Better than JC. 2000 Years and we're still waiting.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-26-2012, 10:47 AM

Frankincense and Myrrh were commonly used together in the ancient world for funerary purposes, and both were used at the Temple. Hearing them mentioned together in the ancient world is no more startling than hearing someone today mention "salt and pepper" or "bacon and eggs."

Matthew's nativity is, of course, completely allegorical (to put it kindly), but I doubt he was thinking of the phoenix when he chose those details. More generic associations with death maybe.

EmmaZunz · 03-26-2012, 11:49 AM

@ Diogenes

But why then would the 3 kings celebrate the birth of Jesus with funerary paraphernalia?

What was their role in the Temple?

ApostateAbe · 03-26-2012, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmmaZunz

@ Diogenes

But why then would the 3 kings celebrate the birth of Jesus with funerary paraphernalia?

What was their role in the Temple?

My guess is that the magi (not three and not kings) brought frankincense and myrrh (per Matthew) as an anticipation of the death of Jesus. Matthew would believe that the only purpose of the birth of Jesus would be his death.

03-25-2012, 12:06 PM	#1
EmmaZunz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: UK Posts: 98	Matthew's frankincense and myrhh came from the myth of the phoenix "There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices" and when it dies, a worm feasts on its rotting flesh and turns into a new phoenix! Clement gives this phoenix as proof of the reality of resurrection in chap. 25 of 1 Clement. Ovid also connects frankincense and myrhh with the phoenix. The phoenix was noted in ancient times for dying and in a way reproducing itself. Now we know why Matthew chose frankincense and myrhh along with gold as the gifts of the wise men. Another piece of the puzzle.

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03-25-2012, 03:19 PM	#2
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	I think that is a good guess. Frankincense and myrrh were substances used in burial. Maybe Matthew borrowed from the myth of the phoenix.

03-25-2012, 11:11 PM	#3
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	So many borrowings it makes one think if there is anything not borrowed.

03-26-2012, 10:47 AM	#8
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Frankincense and Myrrh were commonly used together in the ancient world for funerary purposes, and both were used at the Temple. Hearing them mentioned together in the ancient world is no more startling than hearing someone today mention "salt and pepper" or "bacon and eggs." Matthew's nativity is, of course, completely allegorical (to put it kindly), but I doubt he was thinking of the phoenix when he chose those details. More generic associations with death maybe.

03-26-2012, 11:49 AM	#9
EmmaZunz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: UK Posts: 98	@ Diogenes But why then would the 3 kings celebrate the birth of Jesus with funerary paraphernalia? What was their role in the Temple?

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