Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Seeker2000 · 07-11-2005, 09:36 AM

Reading about the meaning and origin of the name "Jesus" I found the the following website: http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/art...e%20Tenach.htm

Quote:

[...]

This good Jewish brother opposed the claims of Christ in the Old Testament in a friendly fashion, but most forcefully. His best offensive weapon, he thought, was to fling at all of us the well-known challenge: “You can’t find the name ‘Jesus’ in the Old Testament;�? and this he did.

I did not answer him directly, but asked him to translate for us from my Hebrew Bible Isaiah 62:11. Being a Hebrew scholar, he did so with utmost ease and correctness.

Here is how he translated that text verbatim: “Behold Jehovah has proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold thy YESHUA (Jesus) cometh; behold, His reward is with Him and His work before Him.�?

I said, “[...] Can’t you see that here SALVATION is a Person and not a thing or an event? ‘HE comes; HIS reward is with HIM, and His work before Him’.�?

[...]

Then skipping on to Habakkuk, we have the greatest demonstration of the NAME ‘Jesus’ in the Old Testament; for here we have both the name as well as the title of the Saviour. In 3:13 we read literally from the original Hebrew: “Thou wentest forth with the YESHA (variant of YESHUA - Jesus) of (or for) thy people; with YESHUA thy MESSIAH (thine Anointed One, i.e. with Jesus thy Christ); thou woundest the head of the house of the wicked one (Satan).�?

Here you have it! The very NAME given to our Lord in the New Testament - JESUS CHRIST! So don’t let anyone - Jew or Gentile - tell you that the Name JESUS is not found in the Old Testament.

[...]

What do you think about this reasoning?
Unless you think Jesus never existed, anyway...

Seeker2000 · 07-11-2005, 09:45 AM

Some more quotes from the article:

Quote:

[...]

And so when the aged Simeon came to the Temple, led there by the Holy Ghost, and took the baby Jesus in his arms, he said, “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word; for mine eyes have seen thy YESHUA (Jesus).�? Luke 2:29-30.

Certainly! Not only did his eyes see God’s SALVATION - God’s YESHUA (Jesus), but he felt Him and touched Him, and his believing heart throbbed with joy and assurance as he felt the throb of the loving heart of God throbbing in the heart of the holy infant Jesus.

“And thou shalt call His name SALVATION (YESHUA - Jesus), for He shall salvation - salvage - save His people from their sins!�?

[...]

There was the very NAME Jesus found in the Old Testament about 100 times all the way from Genesis to Habakkuk! Yes, the very word —the very NAME that the angel Gabriel used in Luke 1:31 when he told Mary about the Son she was to have.

[...]

Every time the Old Testament uses the word SALVATION (especially with the Hebrew suffix meaning “my,�? “thy�? or “his�?), with very few exceptions (when the word is impersonal), it is the very identical word YESHUA (Jesus) used in Matthew 1:21. Let us remember that the angel who spoke to Mary and the angel who spoke to Joseph in his dream did not speak in English, Latin or Greek, but in Hebrew; and neither Mary nor Joseph failed to grasp the meaning and significance of the NAME of this divine Son and its relation to His character and His work of salvation. For in the Old Testament all great characters were given names with a specific and significant meaning.

[...]

In Psalm 91:14 God says, “Because he delighted in Me I will deliver him: I will set him on high (raise him above circumstances), because he hath known My name, He shall call Me, and I will answer him: I am with him in affliction: I will succour him and honour him. With length of days (eternal life) will I satisfy him, and I will cause him to look upon my YESHUA (Jesus - Salvation).�?

Of course. That promise is realized in Revelation 22:3,4. “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: and His servants shall serve Him; and they shall see His face.�?

In Isaiah 12:2,3 we have something wonderful. Here SALVATION is mentioned three times. The reader will be much blessed by reading these glorious verses in his Bible but let me give them as they actually read in the original Hebrew with Jesus as the embodiment and personification of the word SALVATION: “Behold, mighty (or, God the mighty One) is my YESHUA (Jesus - in His pre-incarnation and eternal existence); I will trust and not be afraid; for JAH-JEHOVAH is my Strength and my Song; He also is become my YESHUA (Jesus)�? and “the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us�? (John 1:14) – Jesus incarnate.

“Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of YESHUA�? (Jesus crucified - waters of salvation flowing forth from Calvary).

Toto · 07-11-2005, 12:22 PM

What's your point?

Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua and the Aramaic Yeshua. If you read the Hebrew Scriptures in Greek (The Septuagint) there are lots of references to "Jesus." In fact, some people think that the Jesus of the New Testament is merely a reworked version of the Jesus/Joshua of the Hebrew Scriptures - an indication that there was no historical Jesus, only a literary creation.

Wallener · 07-11-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

What do you think about this reasoning?

What reasoning? Joshua is a very common Hebrew name, then and now.

Wallener · 07-11-2005, 02:22 PM

I also seriously doubt the truthfulness of the story. A "jewish brother" who happens to be a "Hebrew Scholar" is highly unlikely to come up with the same incorrect translation of Isaiah 62:11 as the translators responsible for the mess that is the KJV.

Given the posting history, it appears we have a live proselytizer in our midst. Let the games begin!

Clivedurdle · 07-11-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it

It says Lamb there - not Jesus! Crucifixion is not a classic hebrew sacrifice of a lamb, and in any case the gospels talk of the good shepherd - not a lamb!

Wonderful stew of mixed metaphors and confused story lines, as much fun as finding plot errors in modern films, but it is all an early version of star trek!

Stewed lamb above, probably ought to be roast lamb of god cos he is alleged to have descended into hell....

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-11-2005, 04:45 PM

I concur that the "good Jewish brother" has got to be a fiction. For one thing, no Hebew scholar would ever claim that the name, Joshua/Yeshua, is not in the Hebrew Bible. There is an entire BOOK of the Hebrew Bible called Joshua. The so-called "well-known challenge that you can't find the name Jesus in the Old Testament" is a complete strawman. There is no such "challenge" or claim made by either skeptics or Jews.

Moreover, the translation is wrong. The word rendered as "Yeshua" in the verse is actually yesha which means "salvation". It's not a name at all, and it's certainly not a person. There's no way a real Hebrew scholar would screw that up. The author quoted in the OP makes a false and dishonest claim that yesha is a "variant" of Yeshua, but that's just pure bullshit. He also makes a similar mistranslation of Habbakuk.

I didn't go through the other quoted passages, but it seems that this guy wants to try to claim that every time the OT says "salvation" we're supposed to translate it as "Jesus" no matter how absurd and forced that would be.

The dishonesty in this person's translations combined with the implasuibility of a Jewish Hebrew scholar making those same disingenuous (and bogus) translations leads me to believe that he was just inventing an imaginary Jewish strawman to be defeated in a fantasy debate.

NOGO · 07-11-2005, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What's your point?

In fact, some people think that the Jesus of the New Testament is merely a reworked version of the Jesus/Joshua of the Hebrew Scriptures - an indication that there was no historical Jesus, only a literary creation.

Hi Toto,

I am very interested in this aspect.
Can you point me to some book/document on this subject.
That is the Jesus - Joshua of Nun connection.

Thanks

Toto · 07-11-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

Hi Toto,

I am very interested in this aspect.
Can you point me to some book/document on this subject.
That is the Jesus - Joshua of Nun connection.

Thanks

Start with this thread and the links in it: The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Harold Leidner

NOGO · 07-11-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Start with this thread and the links in it: The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Harold Leidner

Thank you

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07-11-2005, 12:22 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What's your point? Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua and the Aramaic Yeshua. If you read the Hebrew Scriptures in Greek (The Septuagint) there are lots of references to "Jesus." In fact, some people think that the Jesus of the New Testament is merely a reworked version of the Jesus/Joshua of the Hebrew Scriptures - an indication that there was no historical Jesus, only a literary creation.

07-11-2005, 02:22 PM	#5
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	I also seriously doubt the truthfulness of the story. A "jewish brother" who happens to be a "Hebrew Scholar" is highly unlikely to come up with the same incorrect translation of Isaiah 62:11 as the translators responsible for the mess that is the KJV. Given the posting history, it appears we have a live proselytizer in our midst. Let the games begin!

07-11-2005, 04:45 PM	#7
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I concur that the "good Jewish brother" has got to be a fiction. For one thing, no Hebew scholar would ever claim that the name, Joshua/Yeshua, is not in the Hebrew Bible. There is an entire BOOK of the Hebrew Bible called Joshua. The so-called "well-known challenge that you can't find the name Jesus in the Old Testament" is a complete strawman. There is no such "challenge" or claim made by either skeptics or Jews. Moreover, the translation is wrong. The word rendered as "Yeshua" in the verse is actually yesha which means "salvation". It's not a name at all, and it's certainly not a person. There's no way a real Hebrew scholar would screw that up. The author quoted in the OP makes a false and dishonest claim that yesha is a "variant" of Yeshua, but that's just pure bullshit. He also makes a similar mistranslation of Habbakuk. I didn't go through the other quoted passages, but it seems that this guy wants to try to claim that every time the OT says "salvation" we're supposed to translate it as "Jesus" no matter how absurd and forced that would be. The dishonesty in this person's translations combined with the implasuibility of a Jewish Hebrew scholar making those same disingenuous (and bogus) translations leads me to believe that he was just inventing an imaginary Jewish strawman to be defeated in a fantasy debate.

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