Roller

What is the reason for Matthew's hanging of Judas? Isn't there a servant that hangs himself after he betrays David?

Faithful

Back by popular?? demand. -

29. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4

Ex. 20,4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments

29. The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20 The following is describing artifacts and symbols, not to be used as idols to be worshiped They wouldn't bow down to the cherubims..

Exodus 25:17-20
"Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.

40. Circumcision instituted Gen 17:10
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

(This is part of the old covenant with Moses. With Jesus' death on the cross this ritual was abolished by Christians.)

40. Circumcision condemned - Gal. 5:2 (Notice Gal. 5: 2 was written after Jesus' death.)

Col. 2:9-11 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ

41. The Sabbath instituted Ex 20:8 The Sabbath was established under the old Mosaic laws.

41. The Sabbath repudiated Is. 1:13
Is 1:13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
(This means that they were bringing their offerings in a meaningless and hypocritical manner.)

Rom 14:5 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

(Again this is the New Testament. The legalism of the old laws was abolished. Sabbath means day of rest. After Jesus was resurrected, all the bondage of the old laws was released, and everyone was free to choose whichever day of rest they preferred.)

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob Matt 1:16
Matthew 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ

Notice in the beginning of Matthew, verses 1 and 2. "A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, "

The chapter proceeds to name the lineage of Jacob. In the Jewish culture the first one in their lineage is often called their father, thusly Jesus was sometimes referred to as the son of David.

[65]The father of Mary's husband was Heli Luke 3:23Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

( This would be Joseph's immediate biological father. Luke 3 proceeds to go through the whole family tree thing again, and you will see Jacob's name once again down on the list


71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount Matt 5:1,2 At this time you will see that shortly before in Chapt. 4 Jesus had just chosen 4 disciples..

71. Christ preached his first sermon on the plain Luke 6:17,20 At this time Jesus named 12 disciples.

Faithful

Matthew 2:1[ The Visit of the Magi ] After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem.

What's your point Roller?

jakejonesiv

Hi Faithful,

Well, you have a contradiction right there, because the Bible says God does not change.

Now, I have a question for you.
In Hosea 13:16, God commands that

Samaria will be held guilty,
For she has rebelled against her God
They will fall by the sword,
Their little ones will be dashed in pieces,
And their pregnant women will be ripped open. NASB

I thought you Christians were against infantcide and abortion. Is this what you call "tough love?"

Psalm 137.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thous has served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little one ones against the stones.

Faithful, have you ever dashed babies on rocks? If you did, would it make you happy?

One more question,

Where did Lot's two daughters get the wine to get him drunk for two days so they could boink him?

Jake Jones IV

Diogenes the Cynic

That's a misquotation of the verse. What it actually says is "Jacob begat Joseph.
Obfuscating gibberish. Look at the entire passage:

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

1:2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren; 1:3and Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram; 1:4and Ram begat Amminadab; and Amminadab begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon; 1:5and Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 1:6and Jesse begat David the king.

And David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah; 1:7and Solomon begat Rehoboam; and Rehoboam begat Abijah; and Abijah begat Asa; 1:8and Asa begat Jehoshaphat; and Jehoshaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Uzziah; 1:9and Uzziah begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and Ahaz begat Hezekiah; 1:10and Hezekiah begat Manasseh; and Manasseh begat Amon; and Amon begat Josiah; 1:11and Josiah begat Jechoniah and his brethren, at the time of the carrying away to Babylon.

1:12And after the carrying away to Babylon, Jechoniah begat Shealtiel; and Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel; 1:13and Zerubbabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 1:14and Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 1:15and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 1:16and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

The genealogy starts with Abraham, not Jacob, and Jacob the Patriarch is clearly itemized separately from Jacob, the father of Joseph (notice that THIS Jacob was "begat" by a bloke named Matthan. Joseph is the last in a long line of "begats." There is no figurative meaning here and the bloke who begat Joseph the carpenter is clearly and unambiguously meant to read as Joseph's literal father, not as a figurative call back to the patriarch.
And there you go. Matthew contradicts Luke (this is hardly the most egregious example, though).

Roller

Alot of things in Matthew are taken out from Old Testament (especially his prophecies). He heard of this Judas bloke that betrayed Jesus. Well, what is more fitting for Judas than to hang himself and share the fate of David's betrayer. Acts shows a different fate for Judas, and Papias even more different.

This is not necessarily a contradiction, it just explains different ways the people thought Judas died. Unless, of course, you believe that Bible is infallible. Similarly, documentary hypothesis explains alot of contradictions in the Old Testament. However, then youre facing with the problem of the authorship (if you believe in infallible Pentateuch written by Moses).

Are there any archetypes where betrayer of teacher would commit suicide?

John Kesler

Why wouldn't disparate reports of "different ways the people thought Judas died" be a contradiction? I agree that Matthew may have modeled his account after Ahithophel's suicide (2 Samuel 17:23), but to acknowledge that biblical authors exercised the freedom to sacrifice factual reporting to make a theological point is a double-edged sword, because consistency demands the concession that other events in the life of Jesus which are reported as factual may also be colored by a theological agenda. For example, one can't say that Matthew's account of Judas' death is meant figuratively, then insist on the factual truth of Matthew's nativity account, which has obvious antecedents in the life of Moses.

Roller

Well... Yes. But I don't believe that the Bible is innerant (I'm atheist, FWIW). I do, however, remain open to the possibility that a person like Jesus existed and that he was betrayed by someone named Judas (or whatever the name really was). As Ehrman suggested (I'm not sure how seriuos he was though), Judas might have been a zealot that got pissed off after he realized that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is not the kingdom he's thinking about. In his dissapointment he betrays Jesus. I didn't give too much thought to this but it seems plausible. Of course, many crazy things could be plausible.

Nevertheless, I'm open to the possibility that there was a kernel of "truth" that got embellished and changed quite a bit. Especially since gospels were written after the first war when not many people would remain to contest this. Also, Matthew is notorious for his prophecy fixing (that ass and a colt thing is off the hook ) so maybe he took this death and described it as Ahithophel's since that would be fitting in his eyes.

So, yes, its a contradiction but its possible that something similar really happened.

Thanks you for that. It saves me from flipping through alot of pages.

Matthew modeled alot of his gospel after Old Testament. Perhaps he took this historical Jesus (whatever he was) and read his life into the Old Testament. I'm not insiting on factual thruth of anything in Matthew except that the Earth existed 2000 years ago (I'm sorry if you gathered otherwise from my, at times confusing, post). I guess I'm not saying anything new here.

BolshyFaker

If the Catholics are right about the bodily resurrection, and they don't both choose the same path then the whole Day of Judgement is going to have a real hitch. Nothing like tearing a conjoined twin in half to ruin your day...

Faithful

The tribe of Ephraim had turned to Baal for worship and rebelled against God. God threatened to send an invading army to uproot the whole tribe, because if evil continued, their wicked heritage would have gone gotten worse down through the ages.

We see in Hosea 14 that they repented and were forgiven. Hosea 14:1,2,4

Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall!
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
"I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them.

I'm sure there would be lots of homemade brew floating around somewhere.