Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 04-28-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Have you read these?

Ascension of Isaiah 4 has seven heavens…
The Ascension of Isaiah

1 Enoch has seven heavens…
The Book of Enoch

2 Enoch aka “Slavonic Enoch” has ten heavens …
The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

I Enoch IIUC does not have multiple heavens.

2 Enoch (Slavonic Enoch) is a rather complicated story.

Our only texts for Slavonic Enoch are medieval manuscripts in Slavonic languages. These have two basic texts a short version and a long version.

The URL given above is a translation of the long version and has 10 heavens. The short version (found in most modern translations of Slavonic Enoch) has 7 heavens.

Most scholars now hold that the short version is the original and the long version (the one with 10 heavens) a much later expansion.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 04-28-2006, 11:23 AM

Isn't it a matter of how they were grouped and for what reasons? Ptolemy is a comprehensive list, others might group things together, or use theological reasons - for example seven - to get a "correct" result.

Quote:

This diagram shows Ptolemy's system of heavenly spheres adapted to a Christian worldview

From my link above,

Loomis · 04-28-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I Enoch IIUC does not have multiple heavens.

Ha! Maybe you are right! I just noticed that 1 Enoch 21 says "seven stars of the heaven".

Quote:

1 Enoch 21:1-10
And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe024.htm

One heaven, and a purgatory with seven stars.

But in the OT the word for heaven (shamayim - Strong's 08064) is plural. Right?

And to add to the confusion check this out …

Quote:

1 Enoch 41:1

And after that I saw all the secrets of the heavens, and how the kingdom is divided, and how the actions of men are weighed in the balance.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe044.htm

"Heavens" is plural again

I get the feeling that these guys were just making shit up as they went along.

Phlox Pyros · 04-28-2006, 04:20 PM

I think you may be discovering what I mentioned in another thread, Loomis.

That is, that even though some words are in plural form in Hebrew, they are understood in the singular. Heaven, water, God...

River · 04-28-2006, 05:20 PM

The Book of Enoch (Idrees) appears to have many Islamic themes.....

Chili · 04-28-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Any good references to classic authors who talk about these issues in detail would be greatly appreciated.

Heaven is plural and round because it it contains many generations of retained knowledge in our soul. The earth is flat because it only contains one generation wherein knowledge is gathered and retained in our soul by the woman who presides over the tree of life in our life. Our contribution becomes part of the reign of God for future generations just as ours was collected by the previous generations.

Loomis · 04-28-2006, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

I think you may be discovering what I mentioned in another thread, Loomis.

That is, that even though some words are in plural form in Hebrew, they are understood in the singular. Heaven, water, God...

How many "heavens" does there have to be before the author of Genesis 14:22 knew who Yahweh was?

Quote:

Abram replied to the king of Sodom, “I raise my hand to El the Most High, Creator of the heavens and the earth …”

:wave:

Loomis · 04-28-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

…even though some words are in plural form in Hebrew, they are understood in the singular. Heaven, water, God...

Then you must be okay with this …

Quote:

Psalm 8:3-5

When I see heaven, the works of your fingers, the moon and stars which you established,

What is man, that you should remember him?

And the son of man, that you attend to him,

For you make him lack a little from God.

You crown him with honor and majesty.

Okay?

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04-28-2006, 04:20 PM	#24
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	I think you may be discovering what I mentioned in another thread, Loomis. That is, that even though some words are in plural form in Hebrew, they are understood in the singular. Heaven, water, God...

04-28-2006, 05:20 PM	#25
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	The Book of Enoch (Idrees) appears to have many Islamic themes.....

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