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Old 01-07-2004, 06:39 AM   #71
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Jesus is historical, and we know this because...

To NOGO:

I am trying to perceive and understand the logic herein presented.

Bob K:
Quote:
NOGO: Can you provide us with evidence which supports your assertion "Different books of the New Testament speak of different kinds of Jesus Christs"?
NOGO:
Quote:
Sure!

I will start with the Gospel of John.

This Gospel is most often quoted to show that Jesus is God.
So I am taking aim at the best evidence Christians have.
Proposition: J = God.

NOGO:
Quote:
John 6
33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
..."
Theoretical Proof = Logical Argument:

1. Premise: The Bread of God = 'that which comes down out of heaven ...'
Restated: God = Bread = 'that which comes down out of heaven ...'
2. Premise: J says "I am the bread (which comes down out of heaven) ..."
Restated: J = Bread = God.
3. Conclusion: J = God. [Proves Proposition: J = God]

NOGO:
Quote:
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
..."
J = 'come down from heaven = bread = God. [Proves Proposition: J = God]

"Him who sent me" = J n= God. [Does not prove Proposition: J = God]

NOTE: n= means 'does not equal/is not equal to.'

NOGO:
Quote:
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
...
Logical Argument:

Premise: Son n= Father/Father n= Son [A son is not his father/A father is not his son]
Premise: J = Son of God.
Conclusion: J = Son n= Father/God. [Does not prove Proposition: J = God]

NOGO:
Quote:
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

etc. etc.
J = bread = everlasting life = My flesh??

NOGO:
Quote:
Now we all know that Jesus spoke in parables.
Not all of us 'know' that J existed, which is the issue herein in this thread, therefore we do not 'know' if he spoke, or what he spoke if he spoke, whether he spoke in parables, etc.

NOGO:
Quote:
So the question is this...

Is Jesus actually saying that he is the bread which came from heaven?

Jesus explains what he means.

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Bread = 'that which comes down from heaven' and 'gives life'.

'that which comes down from heaven = bread = 'who gives life' = Spirit.

'words ...' = spirit = life = 'that which comes down from heaven = bread = ?!?

NOGO:
Quote:
So Jesus explains that the bread from heaven is actually the teachings that he gives. It is the words which come from heaven not Jesus.
'that which comes down from heaven' = words n= J.

Restated: J n= words n= 'that which comes down from heaven'.

Therefore, J n= bread n= God. [Disproves Proposition: J = God]


NOGO:
Quote:
When Jesus says "I am the bread from heaven" it is the personification of the words of God.
Is it J = bread = words of God?

... or ...

J n= bread n= words of god n= God?

NOGO:
Quote:
Consider the last supper.

Jesus gives some bread to his disciples and says "eat for this is my body".

What does he mean?
Does he mean Bread = flesh of a man called Jesus?
The last supper is entirely symbolic. It is about the spreading of the word of God.
And we know the 'last supper is entirely symbollic' because it 'is about the spreading of the word of God' because ...?

Last supper = entirely symbollic = spreading of the word of God.

NOGO:
Quote:
It is the word of God which is the saviour not the man Jesus.

Verse 51 above says exactly that.
John v. 51:
Quote:
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
J = bread = 'that which comes down from heaven' = eternal life = J's flesh.

Contrast this last with the following ...

NOGO:
Quote:
So Jesus explains that the bread from heaven is actually the teachings that he gives. It is the words which come from heaven not Jesus.
'that which comes down from heaven' = words n= J.

Restated: J n= words, therefore J n= 'that which comes down from heaven'.

Therefore, J n= bread n= God. [Disproves Proposition: J = God]

NOGO:
Quote:
John 7
16 So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
17 "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

So we should not confuse the "Word of God" and the man who speaks it.
Right. We should not be confused.

But if we are confused, whose fault is it that we are confused?

Is it our fault, for not comprehending? Or for not belieeeeevinnnng? Or for not having enough faith?

Or is it the fault of whatever or whoever inspired and/or wrote the Bible?

Quote:
John 14
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

So it is the Father that speaks (ie: the Word of God) through the human Jesus.
Father/God in J = J in Father/God
Logical Argument:
Premise: Father n= Son/Son n= Father.
Premise: J n= Father/God
Conclusion: J n= God.

Logical Argument:
Premise: Humans n= Gods/A human n= A god.
Premise: J = Human.
Conclusion: J n= God.

One of my standards for the Analysis, Evaluation and Judgment of Holy Books ...

http://www.bobkwebsite.com/stndrdsholybks.html

... is ...

Quote:
7. The gods should inspire/etc. the writing of holy books in a simple form comprehensible to all people of all cultures/ethnic groups [so any translations would have the exact meaning] so that any possibility of having to be a scholar of ethnic literary devices as a qualification for who should be able to read accurately and effectively holy books is eliminated--so normal people [nonscholars] would be qualified to read the holy books, not just priests/scholars.
The rantings and ravings in John, like most of the rest of the Bible, properly to be called the Babel, are not written in a simple form.

Thus, the Babel does not meet the standards for being a true holy book.
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Old 01-07-2004, 07:16 PM   #72
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Bob K
I am trying to perceive and understand the logic herein presented.

NOGO:
I am not out to prove that the Jesus in GJohn is not God.
What I have shown is that GJohn does not claim that Jesus is God.

Bob K
Proposition: J = God.

NOGO:
Nowhere does GJohn make this claim.

Bob K:
1. Premise: The Bread of God = 'that which comes down out of heaven ...'
Restated: God = Bread = 'that which comes down out of heaven ...'
2. Premise: J says "I am the bread (which comes down out of heaven) ..."
Restated: J = Bread = God.
3. Conclusion: J = God. [Proves Proposition: J = God]

NOGO:
How do you get that God = Bread.
Obviously you started answering my post before you even finished reading and understanding it.

Bob K:
Not all of us 'know' that J existed, which is the issue herein in this thread, therefore we do not 'know' if he spoke, or what he spoke if he spoke, whether he spoke in parables, etc.

NOGO:
Hair splitting. I am talking about the Jesus as presented in the Gospels.

NOGO:
You seem to be confused about the logic. Let me put it in your syntax.
What Jesus says in public
J = bread = what people must eat to get salvation.

When he explains it to his disciples
The words that I speak (ie his teachings) = bread = words of god = that which people must believe to get salvation.

Therefore the symbology is as follow:
bread = teachings

Therefore in the Last Supper
Body of Christ = bread = word of God (ie teachings)

Bob K:
'that which comes down from heaven' = words n= J.

Restated: J n= words, therefore J n= 'that which comes down from heaven'.

Therefore, J n= bread n= God. [Disproves Proposition: J = God]

NOGO:
If Jesus is not the bread from heaven then GJohn is not claiming that he is God. If no such claim is made then why do I need to prove that a man is something other than a man.
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