Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WCH · 09-14-2004, 03:29 PM

Looking for articles about archaeological evidence dating to and before the time of the alleged Exodus showing that we would reasonably expect to see evidence if the Exodus were real. That there is no evidence for the Exodus is accepted, but I need proof that this is meaningful.

Additionally, I found reference on one apologetics website to the "Ipuwer Papyrus." What is it, exactly? I tried searching Infidels and got no hits; the first few hits on Google were for Christian websites, as well, so I'm unclear as to whether this is an actual document, or what it actually shows.

On a related tangent, is there any archaeological evidence for the ancestors of aboriginal Americans crossing the Bering Straight, or is it entirely theoretical? I'm aware that this event is 20,000 years ago and therefore a lack of evidence does not serve to discredit it, but I'm still interested to see if there is any.

Apikorus · 09-14-2004, 03:39 PM

The Ipuwer papyrus

Toto · 09-14-2004, 03:40 PM

Previous threads: Ipuwer Papyrus

Why is there no record of an exodus in egyptian history

WCH · 09-14-2004, 09:02 PM

Thanks. I actually meant the 40 years in the desert, though, not the exodus itself... my fault for not wording it clearly enough. This is definitely useful, though.

Kosh · 09-15-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH

Thanks. I actually meant the 40 years in the desert, though, not the exodus itself... my fault for not wording it clearly enough. This is definitely useful, though.

Because the Boy Scout Motto "Leave only Footprints" was not yet in effect...

Assuming of course that so many people could have lived off the desert for 40 years....

spin · 09-15-2004, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosh

Because the Boy Scout Motto "Leave only Footprints" was not yet in effect...

Assuming of course that so many people could have lived off the desert for 40 years....

I love thinking about the possibilities of this exodus story sometimes. The latest thought is that if there were only a million exodusers and they stood in a line holding hands so that they were a meter apart, the line would reach from Cairo to Damascus.

Or let's say at any one time a water hole could supply water for fifty people who were there for only two minutes a day, you could only supply water for 36,000 people a day. The rest of the 964,000 would have to go without water that day.

Or if one person defecated 200 grams a day (a very underfed person), each day you'd have a deposit of 200,000 kilos of faeces.

Etc.

spin

Kosh · 09-15-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Or let's say at any one time a water hole could supply water for fifty people who were there for only two minutes a day, you could only supply water for 36,000 people a day. The rest of the 964,000 would have to go without water that day.

If I may nit a little...
That means that 36,000 people would have to go for a day without water.

Another 36,000 would have to go without for 2 days...

....

And that 36,000 would have to go without for over 26 days....

Quote:

Or if one person defecated 200 grams a day (a very underfed person), each day you'd have a deposit of 200,000 kilos of faeces.

I've always thought the story was full of crap...

WCH · 09-15-2004, 08:48 PM

Just out of curiousity, how likely is it for an individual turd to be fossilized or otherwise preserved for this long? Assuming half a million Jews (a low estimate) and 200 grams a day (another low estimate), multiplied by 40 years that's 1.46 billion kilograms... a hell of a lot, in other words. If this had really happened, how much of that should we expect to find? Obviously not all of it, or even most of it, but about what ratio? 1%? 0.001%?

spin · 09-15-2004, 10:16 PM

I really advise people against trekking in the Sinai. Who knows what you're walking on?

spin

Celsus · 09-16-2004, 12:13 AM

Hehe. I've done this before:

Quote:

We have 600,000 fighting men + women and children, which might come up to 2 million people. Water: In the desert, a man may need about 6-7 litres of water a day just to survive. Since these were probably hard times, let's say 5 litres, which means the Israelites would have needed to consume 10 million litres of water every day. I can't imagine how much that is, but I presume that's more than a few oases in the desert, that they would have to go through every day. That also represents a turnover of 146 billion litres of water in 40 years. If God had been miraculously supplying them with enough water, then the desert would have been green by the time they left.

Food: We know God provides them with quails and manna. Each man might get about two quails for his family to share, making 1.2 million quails needed. If each quail, on average, dropped a mere 2 grams of dropping in and around the Israelite camp, we would end up with almost 2 1/2 tons of birdshit strewn about their camp. If God provides quails just once a year, plus the combined dung of their cattle (probably a few tons a day), and their own excrement, we are dealing with a massive pile of shit.

We also know that they camped around Kadesh-Barnea (wilderness of Zin - Numbers 33) for 38 of the 40 years of "wandering". That means that 95% of the water and shit accumulated around there, and so we have several million tons of water, and thousands of tons of shit, all in a small area. A once-a-year rainfall might have cleaned it up slightly, but to conclude, the Israelites must have been swimming in shit for most of their Exodus. Alternatively, this would have made the desert quite lush and fertile, and so they would not have left a desert behind. Unless, of course, God also played the part of sanitation worker and cleaned it all up for them in a wonderful miracle. This must be the case since archaeological finds near Ein Qadis (the likely location of Kadesh) show no significant Bronze Age pottery, plants, shit or ancient water sources.

Conclusion: God shovelled shit and mud for forty years. No wonder he wanted to make the Israelites eat it.

Considering that the Israelites would have trampled over their own faeces in copious amounts, the chances of preservation would actually be quite high. The dungeons in the slave fortresses in West Africa are currently paved with a thick layer of shit from the 16th century, and it's basically cement now. I reckon some of that could preserve quite nicely.

Anyone heard the Glen Miller apologetic that 3 or 4 hundred people at 'Ai could fight off 30,000 Israelites? I wonder why that miracle wasn't seen in such a good light.

Joel

09-14-2004, 03:29 PM	#1
WCH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 6,290	The Exodus Looking for articles about archaeological evidence dating to and before the time of the alleged Exodus showing that we would reasonably expect to see evidence if the Exodus were real. That there is no evidence for the Exodus is accepted, but I need proof that this is meaningful. Additionally, I found reference on one apologetics website to the "Ipuwer Papyrus." What is it, exactly? I tried searching Infidels and got no hits; the first few hits on Google were for Christian websites, as well, so I'm unclear as to whether this is an actual document, or what it actually shows. On a related tangent, is there any archaeological evidence for the ancestors of aboriginal Americans crossing the Bering Straight, or is it entirely theoretical? I'm aware that this event is 20,000 years ago and therefore a lack of evidence does not serve to discredit it, but I'm still interested to see if there is any.

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09-14-2004, 03:39 PM	#2
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	The Ipuwer papyrus

09-14-2004, 03:40 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Previous threads: Ipuwer Papyrus Why is there no record of an exodus in egyptian history

09-14-2004, 09:02 PM	#4
WCH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 6,290	Thanks. I actually meant the 40 years in the desert, though, not the exodus itself... my fault for not wording it clearly enough. This is definitely useful, though.

09-15-2004, 08:48 PM	#8
WCH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 6,290	Just out of curiousity, how likely is it for an individual turd to be fossilized or otherwise preserved for this long? Assuming half a million Jews (a low estimate) and 200 grams a day (another low estimate), multiplied by 40 years that's 1.46 billion kilograms... a hell of a lot, in other words. If this had really happened, how much of that should we expect to find? Obviously not all of it, or even most of it, but about what ratio? 1%? 0.001%?

09-15-2004, 10:16 PM	#9
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I really advise people against trekking in the Sinai. Who knows what you're walking on? spin

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