Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Terrible sweal · 07-06-2005, 10:33 AM

Exodus 4:
"21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: ... 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. 24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. "

This section has always mystified me. Why does God try to kill Moses? He just had a conversation with him and gave him all kinds of instructions. But suddenly, God wants him dead!

And another thing ... how can God try to kill someone and not succeed?

Anat · 07-06-2005, 11:13 AM

Read the whole context. Moses was sent on a mission by God, but by neglecting to circumcise his son (presumably for fear of complications as a result of travel shortly afterwards) Moses proved himself to be lacking in sufficient faith for his mission. He was saved by his wife, Zippora, who circumcised the infant.

Conclusion: if God talks to you and tells you about your special role in his plan, do everything he tells you, to the smallest detail, giving no thought to health and safety or other concerns.

Wallener · 07-06-2005, 12:46 PM

If Moshe was raised Egyptian and not Hebrew, how would he even have known he was supposed to circumcise his son? Come to think of it, how would his wife, a non-Hebrew, have known? Interesting passage: to me it smells a lot like a Later Insertion, especially since we learn in Joshua 5 that Moshe had apparently dispensed with circumcision for the entire 40 year sojourn in the desert.

The Terrible sweal · 07-06-2005, 12:50 PM

The circumcision explanation only goes so far to actually explain the mysteriousness of this section. Indeed, why did God not just tell Moses to do it. Was God really ready to butcher his chosen agent over such a slight?

And how did Moses survive the first onslaught of the angry omnipotent being?

Wallener · 07-06-2005, 12:51 PM

Omnipotence is a much later theological development, so Moshe had it relatively easy.

French Prometheus · 07-06-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallener

If Moshe was raised Egyptian and not Hebrew, how would he even have known he was supposed to circumcise his son?

1/ Moshe didn't exist and there was no exodus.
2/ The Ancient Egyptians practised circumcision (like many other peoples in the Ancient Middle East and Africa). This makes the whole circumcision-as-a-special-covenant thing pointless. Circumcision didn't mark the Jews apart from other peoples until Hellenistic times.

Wallener · 07-06-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Moshe didn't exist and there was no exodus.

Yes, a number of us have reached this conclusion. The question is how he would have known about it in the context of the story.

John Kesler · 07-06-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

The Terrible sweal:
This section has always mystified me. Why does God try to kill Moses? He just had a conversation with him and gave him all kinds of instructions. But suddenly, God wants him dead!

The second-century BCE author of the book of Jubilees had a problem with this story, too. When he rewrote the account, he absolved Yahweh of trying to slay Moses, and instead wrote that "prince Mastema" (Satan) was the culprit:

Quote:

Jubilees 48:1-4a
1 And in the sixth year of the third week of the forty-ninth jubilee thou didst depart and dwell (in [2372 A.M.] the land of Midian, five weeks and one year. And thou didst return into Egypt in the second week
2 in the second year in the fiftieth jubilee. And thou thyself knowest what He spake unto thee on [2410 A.M.] Mount Sinai, and what prince Mastema desired to do with thee when thou wast returning into Egypt
3 . Did he not with all his power seek to slay thee and deliver the Egyptians out of thy hand when he saw that thou wast sent to execute
4 judgment and vengeance on the Egyptians?
SOURCE

Also, as Wallener noted, according to Joshua 5 all those who were born during the wilderness wandering went uncircumcised, so it seems peculiar that Yahweh would try to kill his chosen one for something that he turned a blind eye to for millions of others. Remember that this is the same deity who slew 70,000 because David took a census (2 Samuel 24:15/1 Chronicles 21:14), so Yahweh had no problem killing large numbers of people when there was an affront to him.

offa · 07-06-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

1/ Moshe didn't exist and there was no exodus.
2/ The Ancient Egyptians practised circumcision (like many other peoples in the Ancient Middle East and Africa). This makes the whole circumcision-as-a-special-covenant thing pointless. Circumcision didn't mark the Jews apart from other peoples until Hellenistic times.

Could you please enlighten me? I was unaware that the ancient Egyptians practised circumcision, and, if you please, do not give me a Jewish reference!

offa

Wallener · 07-06-2005, 06:21 PM

My understanding is Pharoahs have been found in both circumcised and uncircumcised form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia entry on Circumcision

The oldest documentary evidence for circumcision comes from Egypt. Tomb artwork from the Sixth Dynasty (2345 - 2181 BC) shows men with circumcised penises, and one relief from this period shows the rite being performed on a standing adult male. The Egyptian hieroglyph for "penis" depicts either a circumcised or an erect organ. The examination of Egyptian mummies has found both circumcised and uncircumcised men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

07-06-2005, 10:33 AM	#1
The Terrible sweal Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 118	Exodus mystery Exodus 4: "21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: ... 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. 24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. " This section has always mystified me. Why does God try to kill Moses? He just had a conversation with him and gave him all kinds of instructions. But suddenly, God wants him dead! And another thing ... how can God try to kill someone and not succeed?

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07-06-2005, 11:13 AM	#2
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Read the whole context. Moses was sent on a mission by God, but by neglecting to circumcise his son (presumably for fear of complications as a result of travel shortly afterwards) Moses proved himself to be lacking in sufficient faith for his mission. He was saved by his wife, Zippora, who circumcised the infant. Conclusion: if God talks to you and tells you about your special role in his plan, do everything he tells you, to the smallest detail, giving no thought to health and safety or other concerns.

07-06-2005, 12:46 PM	#3
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	If Moshe was raised Egyptian and not Hebrew, how would he even have known he was supposed to circumcise his son? Come to think of it, how would his wife, a non-Hebrew, have known? Interesting passage: to me it smells a lot like a Later Insertion, especially since we learn in Joshua 5 that Moshe had apparently dispensed with circumcision for the entire 40 year sojourn in the desert.

07-06-2005, 12:50 PM	#4
The Terrible sweal Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 118	The circumcision explanation only goes so far to actually explain the mysteriousness of this section. Indeed, why did God not just tell Moses to do it. Was God really ready to butcher his chosen agent over such a slight? And how did Moses survive the first onslaught of the angry omnipotent being?

07-06-2005, 12:51 PM	#5
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	Omnipotence is a much later theological development, so Moshe had it relatively easy.

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