Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 10:11 AM

Sub plot in thread in grd is probably worth discussing further.

Quote:

Jerusalem Bible has a most interesting footnote

At Deuteronomy 32 8 it has

Quote:
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided the sons of men, he fixed their bounds according to the number of the sons of God*

Quote:
*I.e the angels, meaning the guardian angels of the nations cf Dan 10 13. But Yahweh himself takes care of Israel.

Is there an agreed definition of the pantheons of the gods and how it has changed?

This looks like Most High is in charge and he has sons - including Yahweh who is an angel responsible for Israel. So who was responsible for Judea?

So is the Hebrew Bible Herges Adventures of Yahweh, and therefore the Most High has a grand son Jesus?

Magdlyn · 10-28-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Deuteronomy 32 8

Quote:

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided the sons of men, he fixed their bounds according to the number of the sons of God*

Quote:
*I.e the angels, meaning the guardian angels of the nations cf Dan 10 13. But Yahweh himself takes care of Israel.

Is there an agreed definition of the pantheons of the gods and how it has changed?

This looks like Most High is in charge and he has sons - including Yahweh who is an angel responsible for Israel. So who was responsible for Judea?

Who says Yahweh is "taking care of Israel?" The patriarch Jacob, renamed Israel, his god was El Shaddai. Yahweh seemed to be Judah's god. Around the time of the Babylonian conquest, the king and priests attempted to push monotheism onto a reluctant public.

Yahweh was worshiped in the north (Israel/Ephraim/Samaria), but alongside Asherah and other gods such as Baal and Tammuz. Just one of a pantheon, and the northerners were quite stubborn about keeping their other gods. Even just a few miles north of Jerusalem in Beyt El and Shiloh.

I'm not buying that "guardian angel" stuff either. Michael might've been a guardian angel of Judah, a messenger or warrior for Yahweh. But the angelology was borrowed from Zoroastrianism. Michael appears late in the Jewish canon, in Daniel, which dates from after 167 BCE.

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 01:13 PM

"Yahweh taking care of Israel" is a direct quote of the Jerusalem Bible comment on this verse.

Are El Shaddai and Most High the same? Is this evidence of zoroastrian thinking?

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 01:23 PM

And Most High turns up in:

Quote:

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High... the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:32, 35)

So who is this Most High god?

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 01:30 PM

Is this him?

Quote:

Behold, there are here present Lords of the Hosts of Heaven, who are Sons and Daughters of the Most High Ormazd, the Creator.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah206.htm

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 01:34 PM

It looks as if Ahura Mazda is the Most High!

Quote:

They condemned all images and those who said that the gods were male and female; they had neither temples nor altars, but worshiped the sky, as a representative of the deity, on the tops of mountains; they also sacrificed to the sun, moon, earth, fire, water, and winds, said Herodotus, meaning no doubt that they adored the heavenly bodies and the elements. This was probably before the time of Zoroaster, when the religion of Persia seems to have resembled that of ancient India. Their hymns in praise of the Most High exceeded (according to Dio Chrysostom) the sublimity of anything in Homer or Hesiod. They exposed their dead bodies to wild beasts.

http://www.answers.com/topic/three-kings

Magdlyn · 10-28-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

"Yahweh taking care of Israel" is a direct quote of the Jerusalem Bible comment on this verse.

Are El Shaddai and Most High the same? Is this evidence of zoroastrian thinking?

El Shaddai means either El of Breasts or El of the Mountains. One link I found suggests this diety comes from an area with 2 rounded peaked mountains in Mesopotamia (didnt save the link).

El Elyon means El Most High.

El Shaddai is found in verses related to fertility, which is why the breast connection makes sense to me. I think of El Shaddai as a female diety.

El Elyon seems to be the head of a pantheon. A different god.

Conflation of gods was common in the ancient world, of course. Both were later conflated with Yahweh.

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 03:58 PM

My pentecostal upbringing included many sermons on el shaddai - it was always translated as the Almighty.

Is this just another conflation of gods or were the Jews worshipping Ahuru Mazda? There is more than enough stuff about Medes and Persians in the Hebrew Bible to make that a reasonable conclusion, especially as a huge amount of at least editing happened by the rivers of Babylon.

Why would not the chief god of your local friendly empire not be your almighty?

Clivedurdle · 10-28-2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

In the P strand Yahweh claims in Exodus 6.2–3:

I revealed myself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name Yahweh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)

It is fascinating how many little verses there are in the Bible trying to fix things!

(As a lapsed member of Elim Penecostal Church it is important for me to work out if I was worshipping Ahuru Mazda, who depending on dating of Zarathustra, may be the original!)

DCHindley · 10-28-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is this him?

Quote:

Behold, there are here present Lords of the Hosts of Heaven, who are Sons and Daughters of the Most High Ormazd, the Creator.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oah/oah/oah206.htm

Check the date of those Zoroastrian scriptures. Ormazd (a contraction of Ahura Mazda) is a medieval period designation for the supreme god of the Zoroastrians.

Basides, there is the difference between a "most high god" and "God most high," yes?

DCH

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10-28-2007, 01:13 PM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	"Yahweh taking care of Israel" is a direct quote of the Jerusalem Bible comment on this verse. Are El Shaddai and Most High the same? Is this evidence of zoroastrian thinking?

10-28-2007, 03:58 PM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	My pentecostal upbringing included many sermons on el shaddai - it was always translated as the Almighty. Is this just another conflation of gods or were the Jews worshipping Ahuru Mazda? There is more than enough stuff about Medes and Persians in the Hebrew Bible to make that a reasonable conclusion, especially as a huge amount of at least editing happened by the rivers of Babylon. Why would not the chief god of your local friendly empire not be your almighty?

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