Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magdlyn · 10-30-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

The discussion of Yahweh's relationship to El has been much discussed. Here is a fairy recent post.

John Kesler, thank you for your informative post. I am sorry no one commented on it at the time! It's great.

Let's not forget the sway Asherah held on the Judaeans/Israelites as well.

And I'd like to highlight where, in your references to Michael, he was called a "prince," not an angel. Angels were non-existent until Zoroastrianism made its mark on "Judaism."

Clivedurdle · 10-30-2007, 02:38 PM

Is it not reasonable to conclude though that the Most High El is Ahura Mazda?

Quote:

Gnosticism envisaged the world as a series of emanations from the highest "One", that produced a series of emanations. The lowest emanation was an evil god (the demiurge) who created the material world as a prison for the divine sparks that dwell in human bodies. The Gnostics identified this evil creator with the God of the Old Testament, and saw the Adam/Eve and the ministry of Jesus as attempts to liberate humanity from his dominion, by imparting divine secret wisdom

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/gnosticism.htm

Clivedurdle · 10-30-2007, 03:52 PM

I have lost that verse where el and yahweh are conflated, which looks like a political move. Would it be related to Cyrus letting the exiled people return? Would part of the negotiations have been that we worship the same god as you, and here is this verse to prove it?

John Kesler · 10-31-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I have lost that verse where el and yahweh are conflated, which looks like a political move.

Exodus 6:2-3 (quoted from The New Jerusalem Bible):

Quote:

2 God spoke to Moses and said to him, 'I am Yahweh. 3 To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them.

John Kesler · 10-31-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

John Kesler, thank you for your informative post. I am sorry no one commented on it at the time! It's great.

Thanks. John Day's Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Mark S. Smith's The Origins of Biblical Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk) are must reading if you want to investigate the relationship between Yahweh and El in depth.

Magdlyn · 10-31-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is it not reasonable to conclude though that the Most High El is Ahura Mazda?

No, I think El Elyon was Babylonian.

Quote:

Gnosticism envisaged the world as a series of emanations from the highest "One", that produced a series of emanations. The lowest emanation was an evil god (the demiurge) who created the material world as a prison for the divine sparks that dwell in human bodies. The Gnostics identified this evil creator with the God of the Old Testament, and saw the Adam/Eve and the ministry of Jesus as attempts to liberate humanity from his dominion, by imparting divine secret wisdom

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/gnosticism.htm

Not sure what you think the connection is between El Elyon, Ahura Mazda and the Demiurge Ialdabaoth.

Clivedurdle · 10-31-2007, 03:36 PM

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/m...ty=AHURA-MAZDA

Quote:

AHURA-MAZDA: The bright and beautiful Zoroastrian Supreme God. He is so bright that a certain brand of electric light bulb is named in his honor.

As The Wise Lord and God above all other Gods, AHURA-MAZDA was — and still is — worshipped by Zoroastrians as the Creator of the Universe and Source of All Good Things. With the light bulb reference seeming so appropriate, we fondly imagine he created the Universe by flipping a cosmic light switch. 'Let there be light', in fact.

With the holy AMESHA-SPENTAS and also his sons ATAR and MITHRA providing backup, AHURA-MAZDA wages permanent war with AHRIMAN, a deity of unspeakable repulsiveness. AHRIMAN aims to devastate the universe by filling it with pure evil.

Much like GOD and SATAN, they've been battling it out for millennia, but AHURA-MAZDA has a trump card tucked up his sleeve; SAOSHYANT will show up at the last minute and put everything to rights.

Quote:

With its monotheistic concept of GOD and ideas of good and evil spirituality, Zoroastrianism had a huge impact on subsequent religions such as Judaism and Christianity, who appear to have stolen many of its spiritual notions...

I think it is fundamental to realise the size and extent of the unified Persian Empire over getting on for a thousand years, and that Palestine for a long time was under its direct influence.

Certain words spell out the significance of this continuing power base against the Pax Romana. Marathon.

I am arguing Judaism and Xianity did not steal from - they evolved from Persia.

The Most High is the biggy god. Gnosticism arguably is not a heresy it is a direct true descendent of Zarathustra, the xians are the heretics for saying the demiurge is the supreme god.

Clivedurdle · 10-31-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Persia captures Babylon

In 539 BC the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, with an unprecedented military maneuver—perhaps in all of human history. The famed walls of Babylon were indeed impenetrable, with the only way into the city through one of its many gates or through the Euphrates, which ebbed beneath its thick walls. Metal gates at the river's in-flow and out-flow prevented underwater intruders, if one could hold one's breath to reach them. Cyrus (or his generals) devised a plan to use the Euphrates as the mode of entry to the city, ordering large camps of troops at each point and instructed them to wait for the signal. Awaiting an evening of a national feast among Babylonians, Cyrus' troops diverted the Euphrates river upstream, causing the Euphrates to drop to wading levels or to dry up altogether. The soldiers marched under the walls through thigh-level water or as dry as mud. The Persian Army conquered the outlying areas of the city's interior while a majority of Babylonians at the city center were oblivious to the breach. The account was elaborated upon by Herodotus,[1] and verified by passages in the Old Testament.[2][3] Cyrus claimed the city by walking through the gates of Babylon with little or no resistance from the drunken Babylonians.

Cyrus later issued a decree permitting the exiled Jews to return to their own land, and allowed their temple to be rebuilt.

Under Cyrus and the subsequent Persian king Darius the Great, Babylon became the capital city of the 9th Satrapy (Babylonia in the south and Athura in the north), as well as a centre of learning and scientific advancement. In Achaemenid Persia, the ancient Babylonian arts of astronomy and mathematics were revitalised and flourished, and Babylonian scholars completed maps of constellations. The city was the administrative capital of the Persian Empire, the preeminent power of the then known world, and it played a vital part in the history of that region for over two centuries. Many important archaeological discoveries have been made that can provide a better understanding of that era.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon

mens_sana · 10-31-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Thanks. John Day's Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Mark S. Smith's The Origins of Biblical Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk) are must reading if you want to investigate the relationship between Yahweh and El in depth.

There's also a nice amount of info on El, El and Ba'l Hamon, and Yahweh and El in Frank Moore Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic (or via: amazon.co.uk)(Harvard U.P.).

Clivedurdle · 11-01-2007, 02:41 AM

Quote:

while monotheism was a late development in the Babylonian Exile and subsequent years. Smith and others led the charge in this new scholarly perception of Israelite religion.

From Smith link above.

There is an elephant in this room - Zarathustra.

See also Holland Persian Fire.

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10-30-2007, 03:52 PM	#23
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I have lost that verse where el and yahweh are conflated, which looks like a political move. Would it be related to Cyrus letting the exiled people return? Would part of the negotiations have been that we worship the same god as you, and here is this verse to prove it?

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