Chris Weimer

What am I to say to someone who refuses to understand that he misunderstood?

Way to leap over the question.

You yourself said that you had zero problem with the "exact argument", which I'm assuming you meant my argument against Koy. Flip flopping come easy, spin?

Oh, right, this is what you say when you realized that you've fucked up, eh? Reread the thread a little closer, spin. Why don't you bust out with some actual quotes and analyze them, s'il vous plait.

A better alternative to ad hom? Yeah, I got it. It's STFU. Way better than ad hom. Try it some time. Or you can actually read what a person has written and stop playing your little games. It's really irritating.

Late 18th century? Try again. Lord Berners used it in 1525, "Therefore it is an olde prouerbe: he is nat poore yt is happy." Huh, an old proverb telling of a feeling of great joy; content. This is straight from the Oxford English Dictionary, spin. Perhaps you should upgrade from your New Shorter to the real thing.

Obviously, because it's stands true. What purpose did you have in bringing all this up? What purpose did any of this serve? Nothing! Nothing at all!

If you can't get dirty, don't bother playing in the mud.

Chris

spin

Mine was a comment that you were not communicating, so you respond I guess somewhat predictably: it wasn't me, you didn't understand. You're just obfuscating now, Chris.

No, not even leap after it.

Not as easily as obtuseness seems to come easy for you. If someone blames the tools, they are shooting at the wrong culprit.

If you don't understand the content of "you're squirming to hard", another way of putting it is that you are protesting too much -- with the implication that said protest is to cover up lack of content.

I have already indicated that I understood what you were originally arguing. You haven't paid me the reciprocal courtesy.

No, silly, a better alternative to my analysis:

A terminal case of foot in mouth disease.

Samurai Training Finished Unsuccessfully.

You're projecting again.

Misunderstanding on your part. This is pure definition 2 as given earlier.

I think you need to take the training wheels off that model.

If no content can be divined, then there is nothing obvious that bears truth. Sheesh, Chris, you talk a load of codswallop at times.

As I said, you were shooting at the wrong problem. There is nothing per se wrong with YLT. It's not a substitute for knowing the language, but it's better than using a less literal translation. As a tool YLT gives its user a slight improvement, but one needs to know how to use their tools.

If that is an impersonal "you" then ok, but all you're doing is telling those people who don't know any Greek at all to STFU. That isn't useful or friendly.


spin

Chris Weimer

Who the fuck ever once blamed the tool? Not I. Not any god damned person on this thread. That's something that you fucking made up, and it's really starting to piss me right off. You keep making this shit up. I FUCKING REPEAT MYSELF, ESE: "Young's Literal Translation is good for so much, but not in the way that Koy is trying to (ab)use it."

I said that fucking 12 hours ago. Get it through that exceedingly thick skull of yours.

You're one to talk. Lack of content? AKA everything after you failed to see what I wrote 12 hours ago. God damned, spin, I expect this from montanus, but from you? Pathetic.

That's because I haven't a clue. You've been trying to knock something that was never said. Kinda hard to pay you any courtesy with all this wishy washy shit you've been smearing and all those strawmen you've been tearing down.

My god, even when I thought I knew what you were talking about, bloke, when I laughed it off because you misunderstood what I was saying, you go back for more, and then threatingly. Now I've lost any respect to give you on this topic.

Taking snipes at me is ad hom, spin. Don't play these games. I've been around here long enough to see right through them. I might have bought them once, but being here long enough, I can see right through it.

Hey, I gots me the OED on my side. And I'm supposed to take your opinion that it means otherwise? Poppycock.

Oh look! I'm spin. Chris just bitchsmacked me, and since I couldn't respond, I came up with something witty.

You're outgunned here, spin. You're exegesis fails. All is lost. Abort your mission and call it a day.

You didn't say there wasn't any content there. You said there was no content there to comment on. I assumed it stood to reason.

A translation is for communication. I know what the Greek says, spin. I know it in context. I know the definitions of the words. I know their Semitic counterparts. I know their Latin counterparts. On that front, spin, you've said nothing new. And when Ben and I say that happy gives the wrong projection, you chime in that it doesn't, but only a couple hundred years ago. People don't think, "happy = fortunate" anymore, spin. Maybe they did, but it's gone now. Despite your archaic instances. You've grasped for straws this whole time, and would you could get your grummy little hands on, you turned it into strawmen, and then beat them mercifully. You've failed to understand the problem, derailed a whole thread with your defense of the YLT, something that was entirely out of bounds at the time you mentioned it, and yet have the gall to proclaim superiority because fucking a hundred years ago some guy thought to be creative? The YLT is useless for what I was trying to convey. It didn't capture anything at all. For all a Greekless hayseed like Koy was going on about, and the responses thereafter, it made it seem like Jesus wanted them to be happy in the hippy sense. Piointing that out, you ignored it, and twisted it, and then cursed me to villainy. Oh thou wretched fool, what hast thou done? Look at yourself, spin. You ought to be ashamed.

spin

Don't shout. And remember, I've warned you of the threat of RSI.

I'm impressed, Chris, that you can remember what you said 12 hours ago. But remembering and understanding are two different things. Try understanding what you remember.

You're working from the erroneous belief that by shifting the discussion you'll eventually make some sense. That's rather hit or miss and usually the latter. It's better to make a few cogent points and save us all time.

What, you did say the YLT is misleading in its translation of μακαριος as "happy", didn't you? Would you say Shakespeare is misleading when Hamlet calls Polonius a "fishmonger"? You (impersonal) need to understand your sources.

You're still trying to pass the discussion off as you being misunderstood. Oh, the pathos. :boohoo:

One person's descriptions may be another's ad hominems. You were accusing people of having a thick skull. I wish your skill was a thick as your skull. It would help you to concentrate.

There ya go, folks. Our chris has finally admitted he's learnt something.

All I was saying is that seeing as you have it, you may as well learn to use it.

First you say I couldn't respond, then you say I did respond. If you wonder why you're not understood, it could be because you're not being coherent.

I wish you'd keep your hands off your gun and get on with something meaningful -- and respectable.

I can't help it if you can't even understand your own dictionary.

You misunderstood the first time, so I clarified. Don't be obdurate.

Agreed.

I'm pleased for you, Chris, but it isn't relevant to what you are ostensibly responding to.

Still shooting at the wrong thing there, Chris. We're trying to deal with YLT as a tool and what it says in the language it uses. You'll find lots of words whose modern meaning doesn't agree with that of the text. Why don't you learn to live with it instead of going on with this extended bitch-session?

I don't need to. I've tried to point you to a dictionary and although you've got one, you won't use it.

Still being naughty, Chris. There is nothing strange about the YLT translation, nothing particularly creative. In fact it was intended not to be creative. It says what it says, and if you are aware that it was written long enough ago, you should be aware of the language changes and be prepared. Lots of these texts that are out of copyright have made it onto the web. Learn to live with it and make the best out of them.

There are none so blind that will not see.

Shoot the workman, not the tool.

If thou wert my fool, nuncle, I'ld have thee beaten for being old before thy time. How so? Thou shouldst not have been old till thou hadst been wise.


spin

Koyaanisqatsi

Wow

I was going to respond point by point, but I don't see the point and everyone missed my point, which was, of course: A Jewish messiah would never have instructed his "followers" to rejoice in their suffering and persecution. He would have said something along the lines of, "You've got a couple of months to sort out the annointed among you and then I'm going to kill everyone else in preparation for Yahweh's arrival in Jerusalem. The use of sacrifice for your salvation will end in two weeks; then I start killing everyone so get off your asses and start slaughtering your finest breeding stock and offering your best grain, or you're all seriously fucked."

So, seeing as Jesus was supposed to have been "the" messiah (another dead giveaway, since there were several) prophesied by the OT prophets, the beatitudes make no sense, unless it was the first last rites ritual.

From the perspective of Roman propaganda, however...?

And, Chris Weimer, I was merely using Young's Literal as a simple change of pace; like a spoon of sherbet to clear the palate, so that no one get hung up over seeing familiar phrases over and over again.

I've found that such familiar phrases often result in familiar responses (unthinking familiar responses, no less; aka, apologetic regurgitation) and that by shaking things up a little it gives everyone the opportunity to look at something old in a new way. I had no other intention in mind, so technically you're the one that started stuffing the initial straw spin responded to.

:huh:

And "Greekless hayseed?" :rolling: I'll have to use that some time for precisely the reason I just gave for switching to YLT.

Now, if you and spin want to continue this "discussion" over the proper use of the YLT, by all means do so in a different thread, because it's got fuck all to do with anything I was arguing.

No Robots

The question in the OP is not, "what would the Jewish messiah have said?" It is rather, "What could a first-century Jew have said?" In no way does Christ fit the traditional mold of the Messiah, despite some attempts in the Gospels to portray him as such. In fact, he breaks the mold and forcefully establishes an entirely new conception of the Messiah built around his own unique genius.

Koyaanisqatsi

Actually, it is what would Jesus have said and since it is repeatedly claimed that Jesus was "the" messiah (again, a dead giveaway that we're not talking about Jewish prophecy), I think it appropo.

Except that he must or else all of the OT references used to prove that he is "the" messiah (invoked by him on occasion) fail and none of them are prophesies.

It is the authors of the NT that invoke OT prophecy to prove Jesus' messiah-hood, so you'd have to take it up with them.

Does he now? Then why the constant need to quote the OT and declare that Jesus is "the" messiah prophesied? And why the hell would the prophesies be about supernatural warriors who come to kill everyone as a means to cleanse the earth for Yahweh's arrival and not anything mentioned at all about Yahweh trifurcating into flesh in order to kill himself as a necessary means to save mankind from his own wrath?

Daniel (if memory serves; though it may be Isaiah) specifically states that when one of the messiahs shows up, one of his jobs is to stop salvation through sacrifice; to shut off that avenue of redemption and then he slaughters everyone with flood and fire.

He doesn't die as the "final" sacrifice; quite the contrary. He stops the ability to redeem through sacrifice as a necessary precursor to murdering all enemies of the Jewish people.

The NT "messiah" is diametrically opposed to any of the OT prophesies, and historically has resulted in God's "chosen people" being to blame for his death, rather than freed from their enemy's yokes, so that's some "genius" you're talking about all right!

Fuck the Jews, basically. And not just the non-annointed among them, all of them. Oh and their enemies not only remain in power for centuries to come, they morph into the Holy Roman Empire and torture and kill and ostracize the Jews for centuries, up and through WWII and into today just as the OT prophes...sie....d. Oh, wait.

:huh: