DMW

I am aware of a few things that Jesus says in the gospels that certain critics have claimed are not things that any Jew would ever say. Unfortunately, I can't remember where - online - I read about these things. Any ideas?

DMW

Chris Weimer

He never would have called it a phylactery. :P

Koyaanisqatsi

Mark.

Seriously, though. Mark and Matthew, primarily; particularly the Beatitudes.

Chris Weimer

You kidding me? The Beatitudes have plenty of Jewish precedent. Read Ben Sirah some time, or the Old Testament, or the Talmud.

Koyaanisqatsi

I wasn't aware Ben Sirah (or the OT or Talmud) advocated that Jews "rejoice" in their oppression, because it means they will be rewarded by Yahweh only after they are dead and it no longer matters.

Care to quote something pointing me in the right direction on that?

Indeed, that commandment alone would tend to contradict pretty much the entirety of Jewish messianic prophecy about the "chosen people" and what is to happen to their oppressors when a messiah arrives (there were several, as you no doubt know), so any quotes that are relevant would be appreciated.

Chris Weimer

Where in the eight beatitudes does it say "rejoice in your oppression"? Just for clarification, here are the Beatitudes:

1. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
2. Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
3. Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
4. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
5. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
6. Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
7. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
8. Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

Koyaanisqatsi

I'll take over from here on the clarification front. Let's use Young's Literal Translation, shall we? Just for the fun of it. I'm going to do as you do and remove the verse count after 2 so the numbers are clear and then come back to proper verse count on 11 and 12. Ya' folla? Sorry, just saw The Sting for the hundredth time.

Removing the verse count here, so follow the numbers:

1. Happy the poor in spirit -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens.
2. Happy the mourning -- because they shall be comforted.
3. Happy the meek -- because they shall inherit the land.
4. Happy those hungering and thirsting for righteousness -- because they shall be filled.
5. Happy the kind -- because they shall find kindness.
6. Happy the clean in heart -- because they shall see God.
7. Happy the peacemakers -- because they shall be called Sons of God.
8. Happy those persecuted for righteousness' sake -- because theirs is the reign of the heavens.

The majority of these are all based on the exact same theme of individuals being persecuted and the reward for such persecution (1; 3; 4; arguably 7; and most definitely 8).

Verses 11 and 12 then sum it all up:

If verse 12 only applies to verse 11 (as many apologists attempt) then why the summary "thus" and how could the "prophets who were before" Jesus' disciples have been reproached and persecuted falsely for Jesus' sake? Jesus didn't exist then and no Jewish enemy ever oppressed the "prophets who were before" Jesus' disciples for believing in messiahs.

Where in the history of the Jewish people is there an instance of any enemy persectuing them for their messianic prophecy?

"They" in verse 12 can only refer to the oppressors of the Jews as an historical whole; persecuting and reproaching the poor in spirit; the mourning; the meek; those hungering and thirsting for righteousness; the kind; the clean in heart; the peacemakers; those persecuted for righteousness' sake; thus, happy are ye whenever "they" may reproach and persecute you in my name, for thus did "they" persecute the prophets who were before you.

Rejoice and be glad, because your reward for the totality of your persecution as Jews is great in the heavens. IOW, rejoice that you are persecuted and oppressed, because it means you win anything off the top shelf once you're dead and it no longer matters.

:huh:

If you have an alternative (coherent) explaination for Jesus' summation in verses 11 and 12 of the previous eight, I'm all eyes.

Johann_Kaspar

Quite simple. You are oppressed and peresecuted now, but if you will die for the cause, you will receive a great reward and this should rejoice you. And you should be happy, for we will win.

Islam took the same idea.

John Kesler

What you are talking about is the criterion of contextual credibility. In other words, would a first-century Palestinian Jew say certain things. Here are a few passages, which, while one can't say definitively that Jesus didn't say them,at least seem questionable:

It seems unlikely that a Jew would advocate consumption of human flesh and blood, even if metaphorically.

This passage seems to be an apology for the delay of the parousia, and would better fit a time after Jesus' death. (See also Luke 12:41 ff.)

Malachi151

OMG, please, this is a theme is tons of late Jewish literature.

2 Maccabees anyone?