Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Newton's Cat · 02-17-2006, 02:08 AM

Simon bar Kochba, the military leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in 132-135 ad., claimed to be the "Promised Messiah". Simon amassed an army of 500,000 men - but was eventually defeated and killed. After his death his son RUFUS took over the leadership for a short time.

Justin Martyr wrote that Simon persecuted the Christians for refusing to fight. Justin said he crucified Christians.

What would Simon's followers have made of Simon of Cyrene, who carried the cross of the Christian's "Messiah" - who is described as being the father of Alexander and RUFUS?

It is interesting that Christians appear on the stage of history (apart from a few dubious references here and there that are thought by many scholars to be later interpolations) more or less a hundred years after the events described in the Gospel of Mark. The Bar Kochba revolt was preceeded by a decade of civil strife with the Romans which spawned a number of political/religious factions - I think it may be the case that it was during this period that one has to look for the real origins of Christianity.

The problem is that Mark's gospel as we have it today is the product of deliberate alteration of an original document. The original was, I think, maybe, an "attack" on Simon's claim to be the "Messiah". Simon was a very brutal man - Jesus is depicted as the exact opposite. Simon of Cyrene's carrying of Jesus' cross sends a powerful message if contemporary readers were supposed to identify him with Simon bar Kochba. Jesus, the central character in Mark's story, is a "fictional Messiah" - and was meant to be understood as such.

I wonder who wrote it?

Julian · 02-17-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton's Cat

Simon amassed an army of 500,000 men

Exactly where did you get this bizarre number from?

Newton's Cat · 02-17-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Exactly where did you get this bizarre number from?

He founded an independent state which lasted for 3 years. This State's "army" had around 500,000 men. The Romans had to send 12 legions against him. Were you thinking that I meant there was a single army of half a million engaged in a battle with the Romans?

Zeichman · 02-17-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton's Cat

The problem is that Mark's gospel as we have it today is the product of deliberate alteration of an original document. The original was, I think, maybe, an "attack" on Simon's claim to be the "Messiah". Simon was a very brutal man - Jesus is depicted as the exact opposite. Simon of Cyrene's carrying of Jesus' cross sends a powerful message if contemporary readers were supposed to identify him with Simon bar Kochba. Jesus, the central character in Mark's story, is a "fictional Messiah" - and was meant to be understood as such.

I wonder who wrote it?

What would be your basis for dating the original version of Mark so late? Marcion was using a different version of Luke (also dependent on Mark, it appears) only a few short years after Simon's time.

Chris Weimer · 02-17-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton's Cat

He founded an independent state which lasted for 3 years. This State's "army" had around 500,000 men. The Romans had to send 12 legions against him. Were you thinking that I meant there was a single army of half a million engaged in a battle with the Romans?

He asked you where you got this number from. What record states that Bar Kochba had an army of 500,000 men.

Newton's Cat · 02-17-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

He asked you where you got this number from. What record states that Bar Kochba had an army of 500,000 men.

In 117 ad there was a revolt by the Jews of Cyrene. During this revolt the Jews were accused of the ritual eating of human flesh (i.e., they ate Greeks and Romans)

It was probably the case that this accusation coloured the attitude of the Romans towards the Jews.

The actual figure was 400-500,000 men "under Simon's command"

Vorkosigan · 02-17-2006, 05:51 PM

The Romans did not send "twelve legions". The actual figure was all or part, sometimes just a small part, of twelve legions from all over the Roman world.

I'm interested in Simon with the son Rufus. Who was Alexander?

Michael

TedM · 02-17-2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton's Cat

Simon bar Kochba, the military leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in 132-135 ad., claimed to be the "Promised Messiah". Simon amassed an army of 500,000 men - but was eventually defeated and killed. After his death his son RUFUS took over the leadership for a short time.

The Jewish Encyclopedia apparantly questions whether Simon's name was known, and says the name of his son Rufus comes from medieval sources..

Quote:

Bar Kokba; His Name.

Bar Kokba, the hero of the third war against Rome, appears under this name only among ecclesiastical writers: heathen authors do not mention him; and Jewish sources call him Ben (or Bar) Koziba or Kozba. Many scholars believe this name to have been derived from the city of Chezib (Gen. xxxviii. 5) or Chozeba (I Chron. iv. 22), although it is more likely that it was simply the name of his father. Others believe that Bar Koziba was a contumelious appellation ("Son of Lies") bestowed after the unfortunate issue of the revolt. Although this also seems to be implied by the words of the patriarch, R. Judah I. (Lam. R. ii. 2), it merely proves that the luckless hero was early held responsible for the misfortune that had befallen the nation. On the other hand, it is certain that the name Bar Kokba is only an epithet derived from R. Akiba's application of the verse to Koziba: "There shall come a star ["kokab"] out of Jacob who shall smite the corners of Moaband destroy all the children of Seth" (Num. xxiv. 17). Eusebius also ("Hist. Eccl." iv. 6, 2) adds to the name βα�?χωχΪβας the remark that it signifies "star," and so does Syncellus ("Chronographia," in the "Script. Byz." ix. 348), indicating that they knew that the name was only a figurative one. It is singular that Syncellus also calls Bar Kokba "an only son" (μονογενής), which corresponds with the Hebrew "yaḥid." If this is not a Messianic name, as Renan surmises ("L'Eglise Chrétienne," 2d ed., p. 200), one must understand by it the interesting family fact that Bar Kokba was the only son of his parents; even in this trifling circumstance the heated imagination of the champions of liberty endeavored to find some special merit. The attempt was also made to discover in the name of a certain counterfeit coin ("mahaginot," Yer. Ket. i. 25b) the word μονογενής (N. Brüll, in "Jahrbücher," i. 183; compare Rapoport, "Orient," 1840, p. 248); and so refer it to Bar Kokba; just as the Talmud mentions "Kozbi-coins"; that is, coins of Bar Kokba (Tos. Ma'as. Sheni i. 6, and Bab. B. Ḳ. 97b); but such an interpretation of the word is rendered impossible by the context. These latter coins would intimate that Bar Kokba's name was Simeon, similar examples of the omission of this name being afforded by the names Ben Zoma and Ben Azzai, each of whom was also named Simeon; but, as the coins in question have been traced to Simeon the Hasmonean, their association with Bar Kokba is untenable (Renan, ib. p. 197).

His Personality.

This is about all that is known concerning the personality of Bar Kokba; and even the meager data here presented are so uncertain that the very name of the hero is doubtful. Everything else pertaining to him is mythical. Like the slaveprince, "Eunus of Sicily," he is said to have blown burning tow from his mouth (Jerome, "Apol. ii. adv. Ruf."); such was his strength that he was able to hurl back with his knees the stones discharged from the Roman ballistæ (Lam. R. ii. 2). Bar Kokba is said to have tested the valor of his soldiers by ordering each one to cut off a finger; and when the wise men beheld this, they objected to the self-mutilation involved, and advised him to issue an order to the effect that every horseman must show that he could tear a cedar of the Lebanon up by the roots while riding at full speed. In this way he eventually had 200,000 soldiers who passed the first ordeal, and 200,000 heroes who accomplished the latter feat (Yer. Ta'anit iv. 68d). It must have been during the war, when he had already performed miracles of valor, that R. Akiba said of him, "This is the King Messiah" (ib.); but he had the presumption—so runs the legend—to pray to God: "We pray Thee, do not give assistance to the enemy; us Thou needst not help!" (ib.; Lam. R. ii. 2; GiṪ. 57a et seq.; Yalḳ., Deut. 946); and it was inevitable that many persons, among them his uncle R. Eleazar of Modi'im, should disbelieve in his Messianic mission.

Jewish Medieval Sources.

Jewish medieval sources also mention a son and a nephew of Bar Kokba. After the death of the latter, his son Rufus—whose name is rightly explained as "red"—succeeded him as ruler, and he, again, was followed by his son, Romulus; and it was only in the days of Romulus, the son of Rufus, the son of Koziba, that the emperor Hadrian succeeded in quelling the insurrection (Abr. b. David, in Neubauer's "Medieval Jewish Chronicles," i. 55). Joseph ibn Ẓaddiḳ (ib. p. 90) mentions Romulus, but not Bar Kokba. The earlier Niẓẓaḥon (ed. Hackspan) on Dan. ix. 24 adds that Bar Kokba was of the house of David, an assertion which appears genuine, inasmuch as such relationship would have been essential to the Messianic mission. Both Gedaliah ibn Yaḥyah, in "Shalshelet ha-Ḳabbalah" (s.v. "R. Akiba"), and Heilprin, in "Seder ha-Dorot" (i. 126a, ed. Wilna, 1891), mention three generations of these kings—a fact controverted by David Gans in "Ẓemaḥ David" (part i. for the year 880), who adds, however, that Romulus, like his grandfather, was called Koziba, and that there is no discrepancy with the Talmudic records. The twenty-one years claimed by Gans for Bar Kokba and his sons can be explained if the whole period from 118 to 135 be accepted, which, however, would only amount to seventeen years. Singularly enough, Graetz and other Jewish historians fail entirely to speak of these Jewish traditions, whereas Münter (ib. pp. 47, 75) and Gregorovius ("Der Kaiser Hadrian," p. 195, note 1, Stuttgart, 1884) considered them at least worthy of mention.

EDIT TO ADD: Thanks, Toto, for putting the link in--which I should have done.

S.C.Carlson · 02-17-2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

The Jewish Encyclopedia apparantly questions whether Simon's name was known, and says the name of his son Rufus comes from medieval sources..

Since the Roman governor of that time was Tinnius Rufus, I have to wonder whether the medieval sources were confused.

Newton's Cat · 02-17-2006, 11:41 PM

Try this for size:

From Mark 15 verse 21

Simwn, "Simon"

Kurenaios, "Cyrene"

Alexandros, "Alexander"

Rouphos, "Rufus"

simwnkurenaiosalexandrosrouphos

... anagrams to:

Markos Naxios adelphos Iesou rwnnur

... which translates to Mark of Naxios brother (follower?) of Jesus ... the last word, rwnnur, seems to be from rwnnumi, which has the sense of "to strengthen, make strong and mighty"

Whatever you think of the above you must, perhaps, wonder how the hell I came to discover this? (Too much LSD possibly)

... and the fact that Iesous Christos anagrams to Osiris Set chous (chous means "grave") - I wonder why Matthew reports that Jesus went to Egypt as a child?

... and the fact that Simwn Petros (St Peter) anagrams to Mortws penis (Latin Mortuus penis, "dead penis")

So - are there anagrams in the Greek text of Mark's gospel?

Headbanging stuff, eh?

... and there's more.

02-17-2006, 02:08 AM	#1
Newton's Cat Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,181	The Historical Messiah Simon bar Kochba, the military leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in 132-135 ad., claimed to be the "Promised Messiah". Simon amassed an army of 500,000 men - but was eventually defeated and killed. After his death his son RUFUS took over the leadership for a short time. Justin Martyr wrote that Simon persecuted the Christians for refusing to fight. Justin said he crucified Christians. What would Simon's followers have made of Simon of Cyrene, who carried the cross of the Christian's "Messiah" - who is described as being the father of Alexander and RUFUS? It is interesting that Christians appear on the stage of history (apart from a few dubious references here and there that are thought by many scholars to be later interpolations) more or less a hundred years after the events described in the Gospel of Mark. The Bar Kochba revolt was preceeded by a decade of civil strife with the Romans which spawned a number of political/religious factions - I think it may be the case that it was during this period that one has to look for the real origins of Christianity. The problem is that Mark's gospel as we have it today is the product of deliberate alteration of an original document. The original was, I think, maybe, an "attack" on Simon's claim to be the "Messiah". Simon was a very brutal man - Jesus is depicted as the exact opposite. Simon of Cyrene's carrying of Jesus' cross sends a powerful message if contemporary readers were supposed to identify him with Simon bar Kochba. Jesus, the central character in Mark's story, is a "fictional Messiah" - and was meant to be understood as such. I wonder who wrote it?

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02-17-2006, 05:51 PM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	The Romans did not send "twelve legions". The actual figure was all or part, sometimes just a small part, of twelve legions from all over the Roman world. I'm interested in Simon with the son Rufus. Who was Alexander? Michael

02-17-2006, 11:41 PM	#10
Newton's Cat Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,181	Try this for size: From Mark 15 verse 21 Simwn, "Simon" Kurenaios, "Cyrene" Alexandros, "Alexander" Rouphos, "Rufus" simwnkurenaiosalexandrosrouphos ... anagrams to: Markos Naxios adelphos Iesou rwnnur ... which translates to Mark of Naxios brother (follower?) of Jesus ... the last word, rwnnur, seems to be from rwnnumi, which has the sense of "to strengthen, make strong and mighty" Whatever you think of the above you must, perhaps, wonder how the hell I came to discover this? (Too much LSD possibly) ... and the fact that Iesous Christos anagrams to Osiris Set chous (chous means "grave") - I wonder why Matthew reports that Jesus went to Egypt as a child? ... and the fact that Simwn Petros (St Peter) anagrams to Mortws penis (Latin Mortuus penis, "dead penis") So - are there anagrams in the Greek text of Mark's gospel? Headbanging stuff, eh? ... and there's more.

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