Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hatsoff · 05-17-2009, 07:39 AM

From ccel:

The "Two Ways" was an independent catechism current in several versions, of which three have come down to us. None represents the original in its pure form. Barnabas’ is the earliest version we possess, but it suffers from displacements, and here and there the author has freely rendered his source in his own style. The second form is that found (with minor variations) in the Latin, the Apostolic Church Order, and the Life of Schnudi. This has preserved the original order, but it displays an ecclesiastical tendency and has interpolated a further section (= Did. 3:1–6, commonly called "the fences"). The final form is that in the Didache. It is distinguished by the addition of yet another insertion—sayings from the Gospels and other sources (chs. 1:3 to 2:1).

Does anyone know what is this Latin Life of Schnudi, and whether or not there is an English translation available? Also, is there an English translation available of the Apostolic Church Order (or Ordinance)?

Thanks!

andrewcriddle · 05-17-2009, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

From ccel:

The "Two Ways" was an independent catechism current in several versions, of which three have come down to us. None represents the original in its pure form. Barnabas’ is the earliest version we possess, but it suffers from displacements, and here and there the author has freely rendered his source in his own style. The second form is that found (with minor variations) in the Latin, the Apostolic Church Order, and the Life of Schnudi. This has preserved the original order, but it displays an ecclesiastical tendency and has interpolated a further section (= Did. 3:1–6, commonly called "the fences"). The final form is that in the Didache. It is distinguished by the addition of yet another insertion—sayings from the Gospels and other sources (chs. 1:3 to 2:1).

Does anyone know what is this Latin Life of Schnudi, and whether or not there is an English translation available? Also, is there an English translation available of the Apostolic Church Order (or Ordinance)?

Thanks!

I think you may possibly be misunderstanding.

The quoted passage refers to a version of the Two Ways found in
a/ The (Latin) Doctrina Apostolorum (Teaching of the Apostles)
b/ The (Greek) Apostolic Church Order
c/ The (Arabic) Life of Schnudi/Shenoute/Shenouda a fifth century Egyptian Monk. (This Life was originally written in Coptic but there is a longer Arabic version. It is only the Arabic version IIUC which contains the Two Ways material. )

Hope this helps.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 05-18-2009, 03:02 AM

From here I learn this:

Quote:

Excerpts from His Coptic Vita:

The Life of St. Shenouda was recorded by his close disciple St. Besa, shortly after his repose. It was done in Sahidic Coptic but only the Bohairic translation survived intact in a 10th century AD manuscript. Some Sahidic fragments have been identified and published. There is also, a more expanded version extant in Arabic as well as one similar to the Bohairic surviving in Ethiopic. The Coptic Text was edited by Dr. Johannes Leipoldt from Vatican Copt. LXVI, ff. 19r-82r (CML 55C). It was translated in French by Prof. E. C. Amelineau, in latin by Prof. Weitzmann (?), and in English by Dr. D. N. Bell. The excerpts provided below are from the English translation.

...
Bibliography

Abd an-Nur Seifin, History of the Great Saint Anba Shenouda the Archimandrite. Alexandria 1959 (In Arabic)
Amelineau, E. C., Les Moines Egyptiens: Vie de Schenoudi. Paris: Leroux, 1898
Amelineau, E. C., Oeuvres de Schenoudi: Texte Copte et Traduction Francaise. 2 vols. Paris: Leroux, 1907-14
Basset, R. Le Synaxaire Arabe Jacobite. Patrologia Orientalis vol 17 no. 3, Paris, 1923 (Entry under the 7th of Abib)
Bell, D. N. The Life of Shenoute by Besa. Michigan: Cistercian Publications, 1983
Bell, D. N., Shenoute the Great: The Struggle with Satan. Cistercian Studies, 21, 1986, 177-85
Bethune-Baker, J. F., The Date of the Death of Nestorius: Schenute, Zacharias, Evagrius. Journal of Theological Studies, 9, 1908, 601-5
Brakke, D. Shenute: On Cleaving to Profitable Things. Orientalia Lovaniensia Periodica 20, 1989, 115-41
Burmester, O. The Homilies or Exhortation of the Holy Week Lectionary. Museon 45, 1932, 21-70
Butcher, E. L., The Story of the Church of Egypt. vol. 1 London, 1897.
Chassinat, E. Le Quatrieme Livre des Entretiene et Epitres de Shenouti, MIFAO v.23Cairo, 1911
Emmel, S., Shenoute's Literary Corpus Ph.D. Dissertation, Yale University 1993

I can't find either of Amelineau's versions online.

A search on Gallica.bnf.fr reveals "Une version syriaque inédite de la vie de Schenoudi, par F. Nau,... - E. Leroux (Paris) - 1900". This includes Syriac text and a French translation (about 12 short pages in length). It also draws a tree of the relationship of the various versions. I couldn't see any Barnabas-like material in it, on a quick scan.

A look in Graf's Geschichte der christilichen arabischen Literatur would give more info on the Arabic version, I suspect. My copy is at home, tho.

Roger Pearse · 05-20-2009, 06:14 AM

I've just finished translating that Syriac life published by Nau, and a depressing experience it was. Hagiography makes me itch.

But in the introduction, Nau says that Amelineau published the Coptic life and an Arabic life, with French translation, of which the copies above were reprints.

Memoires publies par les membres de la mission archaeologique francaise au Caire, tome IV.

hatsoff · 05-21-2009, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the responses, guys. I will use the information you all provided to learn more about the Two Ways.

Roger Pearse · 05-21-2009, 10:46 PM

Also see this academic snippet that someone sent me for an overview of the Arabic life and the Two Ways.

05-17-2009, 07:39 AM	#1
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Life of Schnudi in Latin - what is it, and where can I find it? From ccel: The "Two Ways" was an independent catechism current in several versions, of which three have come down to us. None represents the original in its pure form. Barnabas’ is the earliest version we possess, but it suffers from displacements, and here and there the author has freely rendered his source in his own style. The second form is that found (with minor variations) in the Latin, the Apostolic Church Order, and the Life of Schnudi. This has preserved the original order, but it displays an ecclesiastical tendency and has interpolated a further section (= Did. 3:1–6, commonly called "the fences"). The final form is that in the Didache. It is distinguished by the addition of yet another insertion—sayings from the Gospels and other sources (chs. 1:3 to 2:1). Does anyone know what is this Latin Life of Schnudi, and whether or not there is an English translation available? Also, is there an English translation available of the Apostolic Church Order (or Ordinance)? Thanks!

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05-20-2009, 06:14 AM	#4
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I've just finished translating that Syriac life published by Nau, and a depressing experience it was. Hagiography makes me itch. But in the introduction, Nau says that Amelineau published the Coptic life and an Arabic life, with French translation, of which the copies above were reprints. Memoires publies par les membres de la mission archaeologique francaise au Caire, tome IV.

05-21-2009, 06:44 PM	#5
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Thanks for the responses, guys. I will use the information you all provided to learn more about the Two Ways.

05-21-2009, 10:46 PM	#6
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Also see this academic snippet that someone sent me for an overview of the Arabic life and the Two Ways.

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