Clivedurdle

This comment struck me in the thread about Jesus and the OT.

Ellegard - Jesus one hundred years before christ - proposes the church was quite well established by the time of Paul - as if it had been around for a few decades.

Are there other examples of established rituals that lead to doubts about the normative christian historical basis?

A pre pauline hymn sounds problematic, unless Paul was quoting last week's Philippian top of the pops!

Amaleq13

Doherty and Price both point to the pre-Pauline hymn in Philippians 2 as describing Christ being given the name "Jesus" only after being resurrected. Not really contrary to any particular ritual but certainly problematic for the "normative christian historical basis".

GakuseiDon

Where is the pre-Pauline hymn in Phil 2?

Vorkosigan

Sorry Don, that nobody replied to you.

Here is the passage:

"2:5Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, 2:6who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 2:7but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 2:8and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. 2:9Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 2:10that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 2:11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Note that the phrase "yea, the death of the cross" is known to be an interpolation from the way it interrupts the greek grammar.

Kirby notes, citing Brown's introduction:

Proposals about the background of the hymn (exclusive or in combination) include: gnostic reflections on the Primal Man; the Poimandres tractate in the Hermetic literature (p. 85 above); the Genesis story of Adam and speculations about a second Adam; the Suffering Servant imagery in deuteroIsaiah; the personified figure of divine Wisdom in postexilic Judaism. A relation to the OT is clear; other proposed references are not.

Hope this helps

Vorkosigan

GakuseiDon

Thanks for that, Vork.

Clivedurdle

What can we conclude from the existence of this very beautiful hymn?

It is as if the Christian story has been written based on this hymn and its ideas! The hymn is not a result of a real history - the new testament and the Christian church are an invention based on a formalisation and expansion of this hymn!

Magdlyn

Aha! Makes sense to me. Gnosticism existed before Xtianity.

But without more evidence, we are left with speculation and our imaginations, aren't we?

ichabod crane

The claim about interpolation of "thanatou de staurou" seems pretty tenuous to me! It smacks of modifying the data to fit the theory.

OK, on this point I think Doherty and Price can be shown unambiguously to have misinterpreted the text. The name above all names which he is given, is not "Jesus", but "Lord". Verses 10-11 read, "so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father".

It is the confession of every tongue that Jesus Christ is "Lord" that is referred to in verse 9, not the name Jesus. It is the name "Lord" that is over every name, especially since there is a direct allusion here to Isaiah 45:23, where Yahweh (in the Septuagint this is rendered "Lord" (kurios)), says "By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." The great glorious reward which is given to Jesus is that every tongue will confess that he is "Lord": the name that is above every name.

Vorkosigan

Schnelle writes: "The phrase in v.8 "thanatou de staurou" (even death on a cross) is usually regarded as a Pauline redaction." (Hist. and Theo., p138.) Paul or some interpolator stuck that in there. I beg your pardon if you thought I meant that someone later than Paul stuck in it there. No evidence can say who put it in there, or when. However, it is widely recognized as not original to the hymn. Which is all I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

The reference to Isaiah makes a strong point, but the way I read it, the name he is given is "Jesus." 2:9 and 2:10 follow smoothly on one another, and and 2:10 clearly states the name is "Jesus." 2:9 "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 2:10that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow....". It seems to me that if the writer of the hymn had meant "lord" that should be in 2:10.

Vorkosigan

ichabod crane

If Paul stuck it in, that is more plausible, although its still pretty speculative. Equally speculative is the issue of whether the hymn was originally in Greek or Aramaic.

But isn't verse 9 (and 10) working up the climatic declaration of verse 11? And wasn't the defining mark of early Christianity their declaration that Jesus was "Lord"? Why should anyone care if Jesus was called Jesus? Jesus (Yeshua, Joshua, all the same name), was a relatively common name. But calling someone "Lord" is different.