Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Logical · 03-30-2012, 10:48 AM

It's a simple argument. Historical figures that do important / impressive things get mentioned somehow in history by (1) contemporary, (2) disinterested sources.

If you are a John Doe, you're probably not going to be mentioned by any historian. Most of us won't be remembered. But if you win a war, invade a continent, invent a light bulb, etc, and there are disinterested contemporary historians around, they're going to mention you.

We have evidence that disinterested contemporary historians were around and wrote about people around the time Jesus lived in ancient Palestine. Yet none of them mentions him.

That doesn't prove he didn't exist, but it does prove he didn't do any of the impressive things attributed to him, doesn't it?

Jesus didn't get a mention in disinterested sources until his followers became a large group, and so the impressive achievement of having a large number of followers is attested to by disinterested historians of the era. But what about bringing the dead back to life, walking on water, and healing a large number of people? Come on, no one noticed?

Juststeve · 03-30-2012, 03:04 PM

I don't believe in miracles or resurrections so I don't think Jesus did either of them. On the other hand some who did great things are lost to history. Who invented the wheel or first learned to make fire. Can we identify the architects of the pyramids of pre-columbian America? Do we actually know the name of the first European to arrive in North America?

Steve

outhouse · 03-30-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

It's a simple argument. Historical figures that do important / impressive things get mentioned somehow in history by (1) contemporary, (2) disinterested sources.

If you are a John Doe, you're probably not going to be mentioned by any historian. Most of us won't be remembered. But if you win a war, invade a continent, invent a light bulb, etc, and there are disinterested contemporary historians around, they're going to mention you.

We have evidence that disinterested contemporary historians were around and wrote about people around the time Jesus lived in ancient Palestine. Yet none of them mentions him.

That doesn't prove he didn't exist, but it does prove he didn't do any of the impressive things attributed to him, doesn't it?

Jesus didn't get a mention in disinterested sources until his followers became a large group, and so the impressive achievement of having a large number of followers is attested to by disinterested historians of the era. But what about bringing the dead back to life, walking on water, and healing a large number of people? Come on, no one noticed?

in jesus case, he was a poor hardworking jew peasant, that traveled and taught and healed. there were many who did this so NO he was never written about.

no one has ever done a miracle ever and no one has been resurrected.

we know for a fact the gospels all exaggerated as they were competing with other religions as well as the roman god/men in existance at the time.

you cannot make your deity weaker then what the others are attributed as being.thus we are chocked full of mythology

MrMacSon · 03-30-2012, 03:14 PM

Figures that are alleged to have done "important / impressive things get mentioned somehow in history by (1) contemporary, (2) [otherwise] disinterested [later] sources."

Yes

Quote:

[The alleged] Jesus figure didn't get a mention in disinterested sources until his followers became a large group, and so the impressive achievement of having a large number of followers is attested to by disinterested historians of the era.

outhouse · 03-30-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Jesus didn't get a mention in disinterested sources until his followers became a large group, and so the impressive achievement of having a large number of followers is attested to by disinterested historians of the era.

he didnt have a large following at all.

he surely didnt have 12

im guessing by tradition he had his inner core he traveled with, roughly 4 people.

You have to remember, traveling around poor villages in Galilee preaching for scraps of food would not sustain a large following. Probably was pretty tough on 4 or 5.

again, we know the size of his following was exaggerated.

aa5874 · 03-30-2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

I don't believe in miracles or resurrections so I don't think Jesus did either of them...

You promote logical fallacies or absudities. Your belief is irrelevant whether or not Jesus did exist. And whether or not Jesus did exist he did NO miracles and did NOT resurrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

...On the other hand some who did great things are lost to history. Who invented the wheel or first learned to make fire. Can we identify the architects of the pyramids of pre-columbian America? Do we actually know the name of the first European to arrive in North America?

Steve

It is good that you show that it is NOT possible to argue for the history and biography of people for whom their is NO known history.

Doug Shaver · 03-30-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

Historical figures that do important / impressive things get mentioned somehow in history by (1) contemporary, (2) disinterested sources.

That is what I would expect. People who believe in miracles seem to have different expectations.

Sheshbazzar · 03-30-2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

in jesus case, he was a poor hardworking jew peasant,

You have repeated this numerous times. Where do you get the idea that jeebus was hard working?
Can you provide even one verse from the NT where jeebus actually performs any manual labor?

outhouse · 03-30-2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

in jesus case, he was a poor hardworking jew peasant,

You have repeated this numerous times. Where do you get the idea that jeebus was hard working?
Can you provide even one verse from the NT where jeebus actually performs any manual labor?

tekton

yes in this case it stands for handworker

poor peasants who were not even home owners, lower class poverty stricken and over taxed every where he turned

Sheshbazzar · 03-31-2012, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

in jesus case, he was a poor hardworking jew peasant,

You have repeated this numerous times. Where do you get the idea that jeebus was hard working?
Can you provide even one verse from the NT where jeebus actually performs any manual labor?

tekton

yes in this case it stands for handworker

Really ?

Here are the textual evidences given of his early employment, profession, and manner of labor.

Quote:

41.¶ Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at The Feast Of The Passover.

42. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of The Feast.

43. When they had finished the days, as they returned, the boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it;

44. but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day's journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances.

45. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49. And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about MY FATHER'S BUSINESS?"
(Lu 2:41-49)

Lu 24:45. And He opened their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures.

He is portrayed in the texts as a 'craftsman', (tekton) a fabricator of words, ideas, sayings, reasonings, arguments, and parables.
"Mighty works" -of understanding, and of healing and miracles -are wrought by his hands".

In other words his profession was that of a highly trained and skilled scholar (Rabbi), a healer, and miracle worker -with his hands', not a simple 'carpenter'.

Never once will you ever find him picking up any manner of tool, or sawing or carving on wood or stone, or employed in any other manner of manual labor.

His profession from his youth, his 'FATHER'S BUSINESS', is that of being a 'Holy man' to men, par-excellence.

.

03-30-2012, 10:48 AM	#1
Logical Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA Posts: 802	Doesn't history disprove Jesus' miracles/resurrection? It's a simple argument. Historical figures that do important / impressive things get mentioned somehow in history by (1) contemporary, (2) disinterested sources. If you are a John Doe, you're probably not going to be mentioned by any historian. Most of us won't be remembered. But if you win a war, invade a continent, invent a light bulb, etc, and there are disinterested contemporary historians around, they're going to mention you. We have evidence that disinterested contemporary historians were around and wrote about people around the time Jesus lived in ancient Palestine. Yet none of them mentions him. That doesn't prove he didn't exist, but it does prove he didn't do any of the impressive things attributed to him, doesn't it? Jesus didn't get a mention in disinterested sources until his followers became a large group, and so the impressive achievement of having a large number of followers is attested to by disinterested historians of the era. But what about bringing the dead back to life, walking on water, and healing a large number of people? Come on, no one noticed?

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03-30-2012, 03:04 PM	#2
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	I don't believe in miracles or resurrections so I don't think Jesus did either of them. On the other hand some who did great things are lost to history. Who invented the wheel or first learned to make fire. Can we identify the architects of the pyramids of pre-columbian America? Do we actually know the name of the first European to arrive in North America? Steve

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