Huon

The reader can find some correlation with the Gospels only in two verses of the Revelation to Saint John. The first one (I,5) says : "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; ". The second verse (XI,8) says : "their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. ". But these mentions are considered by Alfred Loisy (1857-1940) to be late interpolations. I don’t feel I am able to conclude, but it seems to me that these mentions could be easily cut off the rest of the text.

Another point is that these verses seem strange to me. In I,5, the phrase "the firstborn of the dead" is not frequent in the Gospels, when applied to Jesus. Clearly (?), the author makes an allusion to the resurrection of Christ after his crucifixion, and he also means that the ordinary dead will be reborn later.

Another qualification, " the ruler of the kings of the earth " could bear a particular meaning. There is a belief, millenarianism or chiliasm, according which Christ would reign as a king of the world, and all the just, including the saints recalled to life, would participate in this kingdom, during one thousand years, before the final end of the world. This belief is developed in the Revelation.

From the third century on, this millenarianism has been felt embarrassing and awkward by many Christians. The temporary future reign of Christ as king of the world can be seen as a contradiction with the immediate present reign of Christ in heaven proclaimed by the Gospels. From this viewpoint, the Apocalypse of John develops a rather primitive version of christianism.

Toto

Apolcalypse of John a/k/a Revelation on Peter Kirby's site.

Earl Doherty on Revelation

Doherty considers Revelation part of his demonstration that early Christianity started around a cosmic, mythical Christ figure and not a historical Jesus.

andrewcriddle

Jesus' earthly life may be referred to in Revelation 1:7 and Revelation 22:16 Andrew Criddle

Toto

From the Doherty link above:

neilgodfrey

I wonder if Rev 12:5 implies that Christ was zapped up to heaven as a child soon after his birth -- little time for much of an "earthly life":

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Steven Avery

Hi.. could someone give a brief explanation of why Doherty would come up with such a "generation-skipping" (to use a tax term) understanding. Is it necessary to fit into his dating of Revelation, or an idea that Revelation was written before Jesus was fully mythified, or something ? I'm just trying to get the gestalt of his views here. I doubt if I'll see anything really worth discussing, but I do like to understand how these types of commentaries arise, which do seem a tad strange to me. Thanks.

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

andrewcriddle

The reference to Zechariah is obvious. However:

a/ So is the reference in John 19:37 which clearly is about Jesus of Nazareth.

b/ The author of Revelation is using Zechariah to express his belief in the future coming in glory to men of someone previously pierced by men.

Andrew Criddle

Peter Kirby

Many have thought that Revelation is not even a Christian composition in its original form (such as without the glosses claimed in the original post).

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

Doherty thinks that Christ started out as a mythical cosmic savior, an intermediary between man and god, and was turned into an historical figure much later. As support, he points out that the earliest Christian literature (especially Paul's letters) have few or no details of Jesus life on earth, and that later writings add more details.

Huon

Toto, and Peter Kirby : Thanks for your indications. You make my research much easier.

Huon of Bordeaux.